steam line insulation ideas?

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Wolfgang
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Re: steam line insulation ideas?

Post by Wolfgang »

Rich wrote: "...and if you are trying to reduce condensation, you may be adding to it...".
Interesting observation, that.
Many moons ago in Heat Transfer class we carried out such calculations to optimize insulation thickness on piping. Turned out that with small piping, adding any insulation makes the heat loss greater. Why? Because the insulation increases the outside diameter, ie. the heat transfer surface, of the pipe for faster heat loss.
While it may be prudent to insulate the boiler and piping for safety reasons, for reduction of heat loss it is probably wasted effort.
I'm too lazy to look up my notes on this, perhaps another reader more enthusiastic and energetic than I will give the arithmetic a trial.
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gwrdriver
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Re: steam line insulation ideas?

Post by gwrdriver »

makinsmoke wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 4:17 pmAnd white is the color of asbestos…
Or magnesium. You can never tell for certain if a substance is asbestos or something else. The nearest thing to certainty is 9"x9" floor tile and the mastic its put down with. The most frightening at first sight boiler room I was ever in was an unimproved 1933 Post Office. The room was full of fluffy white stuff spilling out of opened up sewn canvass sleeves. The room was professionally sampled and analyzed and not a single molecule of asbestos was found. Go figure.

I do something similar to Rich's technique. I wrap small exposed steam tubes with heavy cotton twine, sometimes with more than one layer, "glued" at the ends with clear polyurethane. I then soak the cord with water and allow it to dry and shrink. Then I soak it all with clear polyurethane. That makes pretty convincing sewn sleeving.
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Pipescs
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Re: steam line insulation ideas?

Post by Pipescs »

Linen fishing line from 1925 wrapped and painted. Surely not a great insulator but will protect your fingers.
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Re: steam line insulation ideas?

Post by ccvstmr »

makinsmoke wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 4:17 pm And white is the color of asbestos…

😂
...and black doesn't show dirt as easily as other colors (white in particular)...whether that be from handling, smoke, etc. Carl B.
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Bill Shields
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Re: steam line insulation ideas?

Post by Bill Shields »

I have a spool of that stuff also. Woven into a braid..

In a drawer, in a zip lock bag..clearly marked
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
daves1459
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Re: steam line insulation ideas?

Post by daves1459 »

I like to use a dense cotton string, like chalk line, wound fairly tight, super glue the ends to keep the string in place, then cover the with flat or satin surface thin wall heat shrink tubing. When shrunk the tubing has a slight ripple effect that simulates a wound insulation. The cotton string is good at retaining the heat in the tube and the heat shrink creates an air space about the string windings. The assembly is neat and durable to resist bumps and abrasions. The only drawback of this insulation method that I have encountered is the heat shrink tube should not rest on the bare boiler, a small air gap is all that is needed. The attached photo shows the technique applied to the 1/4" diameter steam pipe feeding one of EEs small injectors.
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Charles T. McCullough
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Re: steam line insulation ideas?

Post by Charles T. McCullough »

I believe that the shoelace material is tubular. I think people were slipping the piping into it lengthwise, not spiral wrapping it. It comes in difference sizes so it should fit different sized pipe well.

My granddaughter had some shoelaces that I would not have been caught dead using it on my engines!!! Sort of a "tie-dyed" material in pastel pinks and blues. BLEAH! :shock: Definitely would have needed painting!
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gwrdriver
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Re: steam line insulation ideas?

Post by gwrdriver »

Pipescs wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 6:37 pmLinen fishing line from 1925 wrapped and painted. Surely not a great insulator but will protect your fingers.
Exactly the visual effect my string wrapping technique produces. Whatever insulating qualities is has are incidental.
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Dick_Morris
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Re: steam line insulation ideas?

Post by Dick_Morris »

Steamfitters, a long gone supplier, use to sell woven fiberglass tubing for insulation. I have some, but the fiberglass strands aren't very robust and it tended to fray. It was also a bit hard to install. Woven cotton (not synthetic) tubing/shoelaces (which I haven't used) or cotton twine (which I have used) would be my choices. In most places the piping doesn't get hot enough that there is a need for something like fiberglass that doesn't burn. In my opinion, ceramic fiber insulation is overkill except where it is in close contact to flames.

(A side note, as done by some model builders, several of the operators of full-sized locomotives are using a "crinoline" framework to support the boiler jacket and standard household insulation for the lagging.)

In all honesty, the r value of any kind of material that is only 1/16" to 1/8" thick is negligible. The main values would be appearance and to decrease the severity of the burn you get when bumping the pipe.

(Another side note, 20+ years ago Chuck Hackett did some tests of lagging on the boiler on his Northern. His conclusion was that the boiler jacket made a difference in heat loss but the addition of asbestos paste under the jacket didn't decrease the heat loss. http://www.whitetrout.net/Chuck/844/Tes ... /Index.htm)
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NP317
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Re: steam line insulation ideas?

Post by NP317 »

Some great ideas for pipe coverings have been presented in this thread.
Thanks to all. I learned good new techniques.
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Harlock
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Re: steam line insulation ideas?

Post by Harlock »

Wolfgang wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 4:41 pm Rich wrote: "...and if you are trying to reduce condensation, you may be adding to it...".
Interesting observation, that.
Many moons ago in Heat Transfer class we carried out such calculations to optimize insulation thickness on piping. Turned out that with small piping, adding any insulation makes the heat loss greater. Why? Because the insulation increases the outside diameter, ie. the heat transfer surface, of the pipe for faster heat loss.
While it may be prudent to insulate the boiler and piping for safety reasons, for reduction of heat loss it is probably wasted effort.
I'm too lazy to look up my notes on this, perhaps another reader more enthusiastic and energetic than I will give the arithmetic a trial.
That's very interesting. I am thinking that if it is a very good insulator it would make a difference. Real fiber insulation. If it is something more cosmetic, you're right it would probably make it worse.

Thanks everyone for the ideas, lots of good stuff here.

best,

-Mike
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Bill Shields
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Re: steam line insulation ideas?

Post by Bill Shields »

Why not just put in a return drain loop that you can open from the cab?
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
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