Used, 1.5hp import milling machine value?

Discussion on all milling machines vertical & horizontal, including but not limited to Bridgeports, Hardinge, South Bend, Clausing, Van Norman, including imports.

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yardiron
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Used, 1.5hp import milling machine value?

Post by yardiron »

First off, this is my first post here, I found this forum through another forum.
I recently have been tasked with selling off the contents, or most of the contents of a small welding and machine shop that was owned by a relative who passed away a few years ago.
Some of the smaller equipment is being kept or taken by myself or other relatives, but the big question is the milling machine.
I found the papers for it where he bought it from MSC in 1987. Its nearly identical to a Grizzly G0731.

He bought it and basically used it as a drill press to mofify or clean up welded fixtures he was making.
The original receipt was for $1,999 plus $550 shipping. Its likely in pretty good shape as its only been used on fairly light jobs.
(He worked mostly with sheet metal and extruded aluminum)
Its 1.5hp, single phase, with a full manual 8x32" table.
Its currently sitting on four adjustable pads and has an automatic fogging system attached.
There are also two matching 6" swivel Bridgeport milling vises, an assortment of R8 collets and tooling, various ball bearing drill chucks, and other tooling.
I'd keep it myself but I don't have a garage here and my basement has no external access. Getting it into the basement would be nearly impossible.
Plus I'd have to pay what ever we determine is fair market value for it to his estate. I already bought the super sized drill press and a small Atlas lathe, and most of the welding equipment.

I see a few similar machines listed for upwards of $2k in rough shape, a comparable new machine is right around $6k (Grizzly), and a Harbor Freight Mill can be had for $2,400 plus tax.
Condition wise, I'd call it an 8 out of ten cosmetically, and a 10 functionally. Its mostly just oily from use and in need of a good cleaning. It was set up and being used when I found it.

I took some pics but the place has no power right now and no lights, so the pics are worthless. I'll havet o go back with some lights to take some better pics next week. (Its about an hour from my house).

Is a mill like this even desirable?
What would someone ask for one of these used in good shape?
How about moving it? Its in a garage right now, but the only means to lift anything is an engine crane and a few floor jacks, neither of which is ideal.

I thought about taking it apart to get it in my basement but figured that 90% of the time I only need a drill press, so something that size would just take up valuable space in an already crowded basement here. I kept a 20" drill press and an Enco table mill that he had as well. They were hard enough to get down my narrow basement steps. I can't imagine trying to get the mill down there.
pete
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Re: Used, 1.5hp import milling machine value?

Post by pete »

Where is the machine located, Antarctica would have a different price than downtown New York. Without seeing detailed pictures, I'd guess maybe $800-$1500 tops with the tooling if it's all brand name North American or European made. If those are actual Bridgeport manufactured vises there not worth much since the design was reproduced for far too long after better and more rigid types came along. Condition is everything with machine tools and even $1500 might be really pushing it for a 35 year old Asian mill. With something of that age, electrical issues just from moving it to a new location are very likely. You might get a little bit more than my estimate depending on where it is, but I think you'd have to get fairly lucky by finding just the right buyer to do so.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Used, 1.5hp import milling machine value?

Post by Bill Shields »

I have something similar that I still use basically for a drill press and occasionally milling off the end of a piece of bar. It is not a bad 'starter' mill for someone who does not have a lot of $$ or floor space.

As Pete mentioned -> electrics are always ?? at that age -> I had to replace the on/off switch after about 5 years of steady use.

built a 3/4" Hudson steamer with it back in the early 80's -> so it is capable of doing reasonable work with a good set of hands on the wheels.

Pictures and location will sure help.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
John Evans
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Re: Used, 1.5hp import milling machine value?

Post by John Evans »

Pete has it pretty well covered. Location and tooling have a big effect on price. I had one of these and it was a lot better than a round column drill/mill but, still left a lot to be desired.
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yardiron
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Re: Used, 1.5hp import milling machine value?

Post by yardiron »

I see it as a heavy duty drill press, but for most work, that's just fine. My uncle was using it for drilling large holes in welded aluminum assemblies, it was rarely run. I used it last week with an extension cord to light up that room and it did just fine. I was able to make up a set of wheel spacers and to square up a small chunk of steel for a custom puller I was making. It did just fine, I just took smaller cuts. It had no issues turning a 4" fly cutter to face mill the wheel adapters. Of course, if I didn't have it there I'd have likely gone to a buddies shop and just used his mill.
I'm not sure its worth it to me to go through all the trouble to get it down my basement, or to give up that amount of space for something I'll likely only use once or twice a year. Not to mention the fact that I've been thinking about moving south in a few years to get away from NJ taxes. Selling it would make one less big item I have to move. As I get older, I want to own less, not keep accumulating things.
I think my uncle only kept it because he had pretty much unlimited room and he was able to set it up to do one job its whole life. It probably got more wear and tear from things sitting on it then from being used. He had a larger CNC knee mill set up that he used for heavier work.

Price wise, I looked around and can't find any in complete or working shape used under $2k, and those were really rough looking.
Harbor Freight sells something similar for $2400 plus tax and freight, but I've not seen one and have no clue as to how well they're made compared to this MSC. I think its biggest fault is its lack of weight, if its only 990 lbs, then its less than half the weight of a proper Bridgeport series one. I seem to remember those being just over 2k.
I used one years ago that I was told came from a military contractor in the late 40's, we used it to run one process on bronze bushings, they had the machine completely refurbished in the early 80's, then the owner died and they sold everything off. They sold the machine and tooling for $600 back around 1985. The guy who bought it sold it five years ago for $4k after using it in his small engine repair shop for 30 years or so.
The same shop I worked at had a slightly newer Series 2 that was used to mill cylinder heads and custom castings. I ran that as a teenager working a summer job. This MSC isn't anything like those machines, it was never meant to be. Another big downfall is lack of z axis travel. I doubt it would have the room to mount up a cylinder head to do any cutting process. I think that's why its set up with two vises right now, one with a swivel, one without.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Used, 1.5hp import milling machine value?

Post by Bill Shields »

pictures and location?
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
yardiron
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Re: Used, 1.5hp import milling machine value?

Post by yardiron »

I'm an hour south of Philadelphia.
I took some pics but they turned out too dark to see much. I won't be back there till next week sometime to try again. (No flash on my cell phone).
I'll have to try and remember to take a regular camera with me.
If you search Grizzly G0731 and ignore the Grizzle emblems and picture it a darker gray with a hint of blue. I think the table may be a bit larger too, 8x30 sounds small. For some reason I seem to remember it being 9x32 or something like that but the table on this one has more of a coolant catch area arond the ends than does the Grizzly machine.
Besides the Grizzly machine, I spotted a similar machine in really rough shape on fleabay for $1900 that looks like its pretty much trashed compared to mine. (ebay item number 373748017246). Mine has a different design table and is more gray in color.
I won't sell any tooling that I can use on the lathes, so I'd only be selling the R8 items.
I looked around and couldn't find any working mill for $1500 or less, all I found was machines in need of rebuilding.

Electrical wise, I don't see what all could be wrong with it. Its got a switch and a motor, and a light on the side that has its own cord.
The motor runs and the light works. There's no other electrical on it. The only wiring is a short length of MC or BX cable running from the switch area to the motor. Its single phase so there's no reverse.
John Evans
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Re: Used, 1.5hp import milling machine value?

Post by John Evans »

Many single phase motors ARE reversible ! I had a similar machine years ago that had a drum switch that was reversible. Take ALL eBay prices with a large grain of sale.
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pete
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Re: Used, 1.5hp import milling machine value?

Post by pete »

Nothing electrical lasts forever. Yeah it's a simple few switches, probably a capacitor, wiring and the motor. At 35 years old I'd expect to have to at least change out those switches and wiring fairly soon on even a North American built machine. If I know I'm going to have to do so then the price I'm willing to pay drops significantly. The motor may run just fine for decades longer, with it's age that's still a complete unknown. So that's also part of how I'd estimate any machines value I was serious about buying. Some hobbyist's won't think the same, but I'd take a 3 phase machine over single phase every time. Your in the east so there's lots of used equipment around. That usually works against a seller. The pictures of that Ebay mill aren't good enough to judge that it is or isn't in rough shape at all. Paint condition isn't always an indicator of just how good the machine is. Way surface wear, table condition, spindle taper damage or wear, feed screw back lash, bearing noise or looseness etc is a much better indicator.

Used lower end Asian machine tools simply don't hold there value compared to what most at the hobby level view as much more desirable North American built South Bend, Atlas, Logan etc. And as far as I'm concerned, even those brands are selling for much more than what there actual value should be today. That $1900 Ebay mill has a dreamer BIN price on it, it's also OBO. Asking or BIN prices on Ebay are completely different than completed sales prices and always have been. I paid roughly $5k for my Taiwan built Bridgeport clone and have looked after it extremely well. It's still a tight low back lash machine without a mark on the table, it's 3 phase and has the built in powered spindle feeds. Today I could maybe get $2500 - $3500 for it even though the exact same mills are now selling for around $7500. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'll still stick with my original estimate for your machine.
yardiron
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Re: Used, 1.5hp import milling machine value?

Post by yardiron »

I would venture to guess that the machine has less than a few hours of actual run time on it It was only set up to drill one fixed operation. The table has two vises that were put on it day one, the table has no marks.
The quill, bearings, etc are all perfect.
I ran the machine for a good while making a clamp assembly for a custom tool the last time I was out there last month. The motor, switch and wiring are fine. Its not seen enough use to be worn out. I don't see how wires can go bad siting there, or the switch. If I keep it, I likely won't use the original switch, its on the side and you have to reach past the quill to turn the machine off. I'd put a main switch on the wall next to the machine and wire the motor to that. The motor is also huge, its marked Regent 1.5hp April 2, 1987 on the tag, made in Taiwan. Its physically larger than the 10hp motor on the Devilbiss compressor there. It has two huge lugs on the sides to lift it by. There's no way you could do it by hand. It dwarfs the motor on that one on fleabay or the newer Grizzly. The sum of the wiring is about 30" of MC cable from the switch to the motor, and from the motor to the wall. There is no other wiring and I don't see a capacitor on the motor, its either built in or under the bottom cap. It works fine, so I'm not concerned. At the very least it could use the oil caps refilled before any major use.
The wiring on the mill is no more gone bad over time than nearly full spool of wire in the box that it came out of 30 years ago. Its not like we're dealing with old rubber or cloth insulated wiring, were talking late 80's, wiring by then was vinyl coated and pretty much forever. That makes about as much sense as the guy last week who told me the two boxes of lawn mower spark plugs I found on the shelf there were likely bad due to age.
Motors go bad from use, not sitting. If the cap goes bad, that's a cheap easy fix. My air compressor in the shed here is from the 50's, its got the original cap on the motor from 1956. It still runs just fine. It came out of a car wash that they tore down in 1970. I've done nothing to it besides replace the drain valve and I changed the belts about 25 years ago. It ran for hours today as I sandblasted the frame of an old trailer outback. I was thirteen when I and a buddy manhandled that thing down the road on a cart and set it up in the shed outback along with an old tire machine. both are still working 51 years later.

When I was selling the three phase machines, all I heard was 'no one wants three phase', 'its worthless around here'.
I sort of agree with that, there's no three phase here or at that shop, or anywhere nearby.

There's no way I'd let the mill go for less than $2k with any tooling, I can get more than that for the tooling alone.

I have a guy who offered me $500 for two of the Bridgeport non swivel vises, he was originally interested in two Kurt vises but wants all four now.
Is $500 fair for two really clean Bridgeport 6" vises? It seemed a bit low but since he's forking over $800 for the two Kurt vises, I said I'd think about it. I sort of value the American made Bridgeport vises over most others, and they take up the least amount of height on the table.
I also hate to sell the best vises if there's a chance the mill isn't worth enough to sell. I'd hate to have sold them if i end up with it in my basement.
The two he wants are not the two on the machine, they were two nicer spares he had on the shelf there. There may even be more but I haven't found any as of yet. The place is still pretty full, and there's dozens of shelves I've not gotten to yet.
John Evans
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Re: Used, 1.5hp import milling machine value?

Post by John Evans »

Bridgeport vises are not very good when new and age/use does not improve them. If you got some one that will give $500 for them take it and run. 3-350 each is the going price around here for a VERY clean Kurt 675-688 vise. I think you have a unrealistic expectation on used tooling value .25 on the dollar is getting real good money for it !! And as I said before most eBay asking prices are wishful thinking.
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pete
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Re: Used, 1.5hp import milling machine value?

Post by pete »

Wiring insulation DOES degrade over time, I've had more than enough wiring issues during my working career to have proven that to myself real well. You asked for an estimate of the value, I assumed you wanted a realistic one. Yes sometimes items sell for far more than there value, but only a less knowledgeable fool will pay that. If your minds already made up about the value of what you have and you don't agree with the answers you got from members here then why even ask? Those are the reality's of used tooling prices and Asian machine tools. And John's estimates are about as accurate as they get.
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