What can I do to fix Joiner/Planer
Moderator: Harold_V
What can I do to fix Joiner/Planer
I have an old Sears Joiner/Planer and apparently the last flood affected the motor. I started it immediately after the water went down (nice clean water) ran it without load for 15 minutes or so and then left it to dry. I moved it from NY to VT and into the new shop a few weeks ago. Went to use it and it would not start. Actually it started once but did not seem to run at full speed but mostly it just tried to start but would not turn. Without the belt on the motor starts but again does not seem to run at full speed. The planer drum seems to turn smoothly without the belt (i.e. spin it and it takes maybe 3 turn to come to a halt. (But maybe with the belt tension the bearings could be bad. I don’t know how to test that.) The motor is like none I seem previously and when I looked up Sear’s replacements they said the motor was no longer available.
I realize this is not a metal working tool but I’ve seem too many excellent answers to motor questions to not ask for a fix it approach. There is no wiring diagram on the motor but it is still wired so it would easy to make a diagram. Actually it is just an on/off switch and a position sensing relay so it can’t be started unless upright. I have three thoughts about fixing it:
1) Take the motor apart and replace the bearings. I don’t know what starts it so somebody might know what else could be the problem.
2) Search for a replacement motor on the used market of from a manufacturer if one still exists. I’m not hopeful.
3) Put in a non-identical motor and rig it to connect to the cutter drum. There actually is a lot of room in the cavity where the motor goes so I could imagine a high speed 3 phase motor with a pair of helical gears and a small VFD.
There are pictures to show Sears model No, Motor and label, and the cavity available for a new motor. The sign on the front of the machine says it is 2 hp but that might be advertising.
I realize this is not a metal working tool but I’ve seem too many excellent answers to motor questions to not ask for a fix it approach. There is no wiring diagram on the motor but it is still wired so it would easy to make a diagram. Actually it is just an on/off switch and a position sensing relay so it can’t be started unless upright. I have three thoughts about fixing it:
1) Take the motor apart and replace the bearings. I don’t know what starts it so somebody might know what else could be the problem.
2) Search for a replacement motor on the used market of from a manufacturer if one still exists. I’m not hopeful.
3) Put in a non-identical motor and rig it to connect to the cutter drum. There actually is a lot of room in the cavity where the motor goes so I could imagine a high speed 3 phase motor with a pair of helical gears and a small VFD.
There are pictures to show Sears model No, Motor and label, and the cavity available for a new motor. The sign on the front of the machine says it is 2 hp but that might be advertising.
Re: What can I do to fix Joiner/Planer
I suspect water got in the bearings, resulting in at least minor rusting. It most likely was a mistake running the motor before allowing it to dry out completely, as the water mixed with the grease, making it difficult to evaporate fully.
I expect the motor has a starting switch, which may or may not be activating. That could be due to fouled contacts, or the mechanism rusted such that it isn't functioning properly.
From my vantage point, I think I'd tear the motor down and see if there's anything obvious that might be causing it to behave as it does. Replacing it would be the last thing I'd consider, barring a short somewhere that can't be addressed.
Harold
I expect the motor has a starting switch, which may or may not be activating. That could be due to fouled contacts, or the mechanism rusted such that it isn't functioning properly.
From my vantage point, I think I'd tear the motor down and see if there's anything obvious that might be causing it to behave as it does. Replacing it would be the last thing I'd consider, barring a short somewhere that can't be addressed.
Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
- warmstrong1955
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Re: What can I do to fix Joiner/Planer
And if you find water, bake at 200F in the oven, with the door a bit open for several hours.
Bill
Bill
Today's solutions are tomorrow's problems.
Re: What can I do to fix Joiner/Planer
Current tracks are nasty things created by water and every particle flooded through. The sealed bearings would be the last to go. Baking doesn't seem right either, after all this time. The tracks were established by the film and when current passes through them, they may open or become more concentrated. Like Harold said; open that motor and note carefully the tracks and black areas of arc or high temperature. Can't say what you may find but I think it is worth a shot. Sometimes an old toothbrush or fine wire to clean at least between the segments. That dried slurry is death by many cuts by bridging isolated segments. I wouldn't even mention it unless I looked at that motor. 10 amps 3450rpm. #R488D101 I think the "R" means Republic of China. I did search, yet not as far as the real search. I'm sure there are the same motors afar.
- Atkinson_Railroad
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Re: What can I do to fix Joiner/Planer
As other’s have commented, the motor should not have been powered up
before adequately drying it out.
However, if the motor started and rotated, the winding in the motor is likely “okay”.
This means it’s worth dismantling to further clean out water related debris and any sawdust.
From the third photograph, it looks like the motor uses an enclosed current actuated start relay.
(Black item at left with motor leads connecting to it).
This part too, is going to have water related issues that may not be correctable
because it’s permanently sealed and not intended to be taken apart. (If that’s what that item is
in the photo).
IF, there is any side to side (up-n-down) movement from the motor shaft before attempting
to dismantle the motor, it has bearing issues and for what the item is, it’s not worth
attempting to repair. (Unless you want to ; )
URL to parts availability:
https://www.searspartsdirect.com/model- ... 113.232211
It looks like the motor, and the start relay mentioned above are no longer available from Sears.
I think what I would do, if you really want to keep the joiner, is… consider hanging a
standard NEMA frame motor below the joiner using a longer belt and the motor weight
for belt tension. Sears used to mount motors to their products in this manner.
If you go that route, a 1/2 HP 3600 RPM TEFC 48 Frame rigid mount motor and related
necessary wiring and motor rated switch to power it would work.
(Guessing your pulley shaft/bore is 1/2")
John
POST SCRIPT: The number one cause of wood working motor failures is sawdust entering the motor.
Sawdust obstructs stationary start contacts prohibiting the motor from starting. Blowing the motor out
using compressed air will often dislodge the problematic dust, and the motor will again start and run.
before adequately drying it out.
However, if the motor started and rotated, the winding in the motor is likely “okay”.
This means it’s worth dismantling to further clean out water related debris and any sawdust.
From the third photograph, it looks like the motor uses an enclosed current actuated start relay.
(Black item at left with motor leads connecting to it).
This part too, is going to have water related issues that may not be correctable
because it’s permanently sealed and not intended to be taken apart. (If that’s what that item is
in the photo).
IF, there is any side to side (up-n-down) movement from the motor shaft before attempting
to dismantle the motor, it has bearing issues and for what the item is, it’s not worth
attempting to repair. (Unless you want to ; )
URL to parts availability:
https://www.searspartsdirect.com/model- ... 113.232211
It looks like the motor, and the start relay mentioned above are no longer available from Sears.
I think what I would do, if you really want to keep the joiner, is… consider hanging a
standard NEMA frame motor below the joiner using a longer belt and the motor weight
for belt tension. Sears used to mount motors to their products in this manner.
If you go that route, a 1/2 HP 3600 RPM TEFC 48 Frame rigid mount motor and related
necessary wiring and motor rated switch to power it would work.
(Guessing your pulley shaft/bore is 1/2")
John
POST SCRIPT: The number one cause of wood working motor failures is sawdust entering the motor.
Sawdust obstructs stationary start contacts prohibiting the motor from starting. Blowing the motor out
using compressed air will often dislodge the problematic dust, and the motor will again start and run.
Re: What can I do to fix Joiner/Planer
Have you considered taking it to a guy who repairs/rewinds motors? My uncle is in that business for the local farmers and some of the motors that drive gutter cleaners and silage elevators are in such a condition that the ordinary person would not consider a repair. According to my uncle it just needs a bit of cleaning up, new bearings, new windings, replace the switches, and it is good to go.
Just another suggestion.
--earlgo
Just another suggestion.
--earlgo
Before you do anything, you must do something else first. - Washington's principle.
Re: What can I do to fix Joiner/Planer
That is really my preferred plan but I don't think there is a motor rebuild shop within 50 miles of here.earlgo wrote:Have you considered taking it to a guy who repairs/rewinds motors? ...
--earlgo
I am in the process of moving tools, furniture and fixings from NY to VT. It is not going very well. It seems that everything that sort of use to work, stops working during the move or it falls over when I'm getting it out of my trailer and into the shop. (Radial Saw Motor use to be noisy but now it won't run, big table saw fell over in stairwell and I will have to realign the table and blade, joiner/planer you know the story and 3 by 2 foot granite table top tipped over and crushed my finger.) Although I did not need the joiner/planer right away, I had brought it up because it fit in a load and when I got it into shop I tried it but it did not work. I turned it over to see if the belt was bad and found a motor type I did not recognize. I played with it a bit then put up the question hoping somebody would say that it was a 'Type ????' and you can find them at 'Some supplier'. I knew at the time that if it was just a matter off ordering a replacement I could find the time but I was not going to have time for an extensive search and building new mounting brackets.
The move involves two steps. Hauling all the heavy tools to VT and putting an electrical system in that is suitable for a shop, i.e. new electric outlets at least in the shop because the original builder used 15 amp types and put about a dozed outlets on each circuit, and a new feeder circuit breaker box because the new house is electric heat and all forty circuit breaker slots are used. My first though was combine circuits and make some breakers idle. But this area of VT has a complicated off peak power schedule so there is a big, clock driven relay panel next to the CB box that turns heat off when it's not off peak rates. Circuits are wired from breaker to relay to 2 wire load supply conductor. With that wiring the relay box allows homeowner to override the clocked switching on a room by room basis. I've been into the CB box and found it is an example of spaghetti wiring with no excess wire length and not easy to modify. So current project is installing feeder CB box: i.e. remove the shop heat wires from a double slot, replace current breaker with a bigger one, wiring to the new CD box, find and rewiring the heat wires to the new feeder box, install new interrupt line back to relay panel, and finally install the new circuits for machine power outlets. After that I really want to bring up 3-in-1 mill/lathe, planer, bandsaws and surface grinder. As such I will not get back to and focused on the joiner/planer motor for a while.
One evening last week I did search for a new motor. I have run my wood lathe and jig saw using a motor suspended under the tools for years. I don't like doing that because it bounces and sometimes, not often maybe 2-3x in sixty years it causes the belt to spring free and the motor to fall. Even though it's a rare event it scares me and normally breaks something; my heart, my foot or the edge of the motor pulley. So I measured the size of the cavity under the joiner/planer table and searched for a motor that would fit it. Because the 3 phase motors are smaller per hp and they don't have capacitor cans on the side I found them to be more suitable. So I searched for a 3 phase, 220v, motor and VFD that could be adapted to the application. There is a fan motor system that is almost suitable except that it has the end of the motor shaft threaded. I suppose I could thread the hub of bevel gear then put a lock nut on it. That would allow the motor shaft to connect to an idler shaft that held the pulley for driving the cutter. I'm sure it would be a fun project but it will be quite a while before a project like that pops to the top of my to-do list. Also $280 for the motor/VFD plus the cost of two bevel gears and my time to make the mounting brackets and wonder if it might make more sense to just go skiing every day until it's time to open the tennis court.
Thanks to all for the replies.
Re: What can I do to fix Joiner/Planer
I am a newbie here to this forum and my advise/suggestion may not be well heeled, but here goes anyway. I have the same model jointer. I do not have experience with flooded tools (thankfully). I do know that water/corrosion is the bane of a lot of electrical issues. If it were me, I would disconnect the motor from the starter switch and level sensor entirely for testing. Plug the motor (clamped down) into electric supply to ascertain if it is the motor that is faulty or the switch/relay that is faulty. If the motor turns over, power/wire up the motor thru the on/off switch, then if that functions, try adding the wiring to include the level sensor, and possibly rotate it into various positions (by hand). If the motor does no turn over directly wired into 120 VAC, then I am at a loss.
Now on a inquiry matter. As I stated, I have the same model jointer. I picked it up reasonably locally and it needed a bit of cleaning of surface rust and a bit of TLC. There are a few items missing/broken as expected with used tools. If you are scraping your jointer, I would be interested in trying to obtain some components possibly . . . . . just asking.
Thanks
Paul
Now on a inquiry matter. As I stated, I have the same model jointer. I picked it up reasonably locally and it needed a bit of cleaning of surface rust and a bit of TLC. There are a few items missing/broken as expected with used tools. If you are scraping your jointer, I would be interested in trying to obtain some components possibly . . . . . just asking.
Thanks
Paul
Re: What can I do to fix Joiner/Planer
Welcome sudapr.
Please note that the last posting in this thread was dated Jan 2017, so I would not expect to generate answers.
But you never know...
RussN
Please note that the last posting in this thread was dated Jan 2017, so I would not expect to generate answers.
But you never know...
RussN