A lot of help please, am pretty experienced welder on and off [pun] 50 years my horrible buzzbox is giving problems on initiating the strike. It sticks or if I crank up the voltage it burns through. The material is light, 1 inch square 16swg mild steel but have not had this problem before. Have tried all the thickness rods 6013, all are dry all contact surfaces are clean. Incoming voltage is 230 but how consisitant I don,t know [FLUCTUATION] energy supply a bit of a problem at the moment. Have run a supplementary earth as well. Am very frustrated and fresh out of ideas. Anybody with any more thoughts would be greatly appreciated. The quality of the weld is very poor, looks like the proverbial vulture..... but then sometimes quite a good bead with penetration then holes and build up.
With thanks Golfpin RSA
ac arc problem
Moderator: Harold_V
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redneckalbertan
- Posts: 1274
- Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:39 am
- Location: South Central Alberta
Re: ac arc problem
I'll start by saying that my opinion on the 6013 rod is not great. The two rods in my arsenal, for the most part are 6010 and 7018. For your buzz box I would recommend the 6011 and 7018AC rods.
That being said, with absolutely no offence intended, has your eyesight changed in the last year and do you need glasses or a different prescription? If the answer is yes that would be a good place to start. If finances are not at a place to afford that I would recomend some cheep reading glasses. We can get them up here for a few bucks at Princess Auto and I think I remember others, down in the States, talking about the same or similar ones at Harbour freight. The option that I have chosen to go with are cheater lenses in my helmet. I just wrote a detailed description in Charlie's thread on converting a 2-4-2 to a 2-4-4... I think that was the thread. Eyesight can make a HUGE difference in ones ability to weld.
If that is not the case, I would grab a couple pieces of thicker metal 1/4" or so and try welding them together or welding a couple beads. The idea here is to find out if it is something you are doing or the machine or rod that is at fault. It's much easier to do this on something easier to weld, thus thicker.
If everything seems to be working fine there I would try starting my arc differently. There's two basic ways strike your arc like you are striking a match and drag the rod accross the work, or peck at it like a wood pecker. Try different length strokes on the peck, ad a slight twist to it as you are making contact with the work, harder, softer, quicker, slower. With the match strike try different angles of the rod and different inclination, quicker, slower.
If we go back to the testing the machine and rod, if you are having difficulty with the thicker material, try a different box of rod. Preferably a brand new box and see if the trouble persists. If you can eliminate the rod, make sure your contact points on the ground clamp are clean. As well as any quick connects or other plugs in the cables.
If everything seems to be ok ask a friend to try, preferably someone who has welded before! If there is still problems, unplug the machineing the cover off and blow the machine out with compressed air. Check for anything that may look out of the ordinary or broken loose wires etc. but the chances of that being the problem are fairly slim, I think, those buzz boxes are pretty simple and bullet proof!
If nothing seems to work put it back together and give it a couple good sharp smacks with your fist, sometimes they need an attitude adjustment!
If memory serves me you have a miller thundebolt. Is that correct or am I thinking of someone else on this forum?
That being said, with absolutely no offence intended, has your eyesight changed in the last year and do you need glasses or a different prescription? If the answer is yes that would be a good place to start. If finances are not at a place to afford that I would recomend some cheep reading glasses. We can get them up here for a few bucks at Princess Auto and I think I remember others, down in the States, talking about the same or similar ones at Harbour freight. The option that I have chosen to go with are cheater lenses in my helmet. I just wrote a detailed description in Charlie's thread on converting a 2-4-2 to a 2-4-4... I think that was the thread. Eyesight can make a HUGE difference in ones ability to weld.
If that is not the case, I would grab a couple pieces of thicker metal 1/4" or so and try welding them together or welding a couple beads. The idea here is to find out if it is something you are doing or the machine or rod that is at fault. It's much easier to do this on something easier to weld, thus thicker.
If everything seems to be working fine there I would try starting my arc differently. There's two basic ways strike your arc like you are striking a match and drag the rod accross the work, or peck at it like a wood pecker. Try different length strokes on the peck, ad a slight twist to it as you are making contact with the work, harder, softer, quicker, slower. With the match strike try different angles of the rod and different inclination, quicker, slower.
If we go back to the testing the machine and rod, if you are having difficulty with the thicker material, try a different box of rod. Preferably a brand new box and see if the trouble persists. If you can eliminate the rod, make sure your contact points on the ground clamp are clean. As well as any quick connects or other plugs in the cables.
If everything seems to be ok ask a friend to try, preferably someone who has welded before! If there is still problems, unplug the machineing the cover off and blow the machine out with compressed air. Check for anything that may look out of the ordinary or broken loose wires etc. but the chances of that being the problem are fairly slim, I think, those buzz boxes are pretty simple and bullet proof!
If nothing seems to work put it back together and give it a couple good sharp smacks with your fist, sometimes they need an attitude adjustment!
If memory serves me you have a miller thundebolt. Is that correct or am I thinking of someone else on this forum?
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golfpin
Re: ac arc problem
A very good day to you Redneckalbertan,
thank you for a very concise and unfortunately accurate reply.. yes I will be 71 next month and am considered to be in exceptional good shape but, for the eye sight, has been an on going problem for the last 3 years. Started off with a detached retina and although the surgery was successful the end result is a loss of strength in the eye but more frustratingly is a loss of depth perception and this impacts on the ability to strike an arc! So, having said that all of your points are correct and I have tried them all. excluding the AWS as recommended by u, I will get to that when next in the big city. But in conclusion went out to the Buzz box this morning rammed a new 2mm rod into the holder {6013} gave bad box a hefty kick and laid down a reasonable weld.. amps was too high because I had been using 2.5 wound amps back laid another weld .. and not too dusty. Gave serious thought to buying one of the latest {Chiwanese invertor] type machines they seem to work very well, but with time running out how much welding left to do?
Hope the levity is not misconstrued thank you again for the very informative reply.
PS a good friend on seeing my near suicidal frustration went out and bought a top of the range auto darkening helmet I have only used one of these once, so, a new learning curve to break about 50 years of conditioned reflex. Cheers Golfpin
thank you for a very concise and unfortunately accurate reply.. yes I will be 71 next month and am considered to be in exceptional good shape but, for the eye sight, has been an on going problem for the last 3 years. Started off with a detached retina and although the surgery was successful the end result is a loss of strength in the eye but more frustratingly is a loss of depth perception and this impacts on the ability to strike an arc! So, having said that all of your points are correct and I have tried them all. excluding the AWS as recommended by u, I will get to that when next in the big city. But in conclusion went out to the Buzz box this morning rammed a new 2mm rod into the holder {6013} gave bad box a hefty kick and laid down a reasonable weld.. amps was too high because I had been using 2.5 wound amps back laid another weld .. and not too dusty. Gave serious thought to buying one of the latest {Chiwanese invertor] type machines they seem to work very well, but with time running out how much welding left to do?
Hope the levity is not misconstrued thank you again for the very informative reply.
PS a good friend on seeing my near suicidal frustration went out and bought a top of the range auto darkening helmet I have only used one of these once, so, a new learning curve to break about 50 years of conditioned reflex. Cheers Golfpin
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redneckalbertan
- Posts: 1274
- Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:39 am
- Location: South Central Alberta
Re: ac arc problem
Have fun with breaking a 50 year routine! I started welding when I was 11 or 12 in my grandparents as well as my fathers shop. Never did much but a little bit here or there. Then I started welding for a living after high school, and after about one year I got my first electronic helmet. And ya, it's hard to break a habit! I'm now back to a flip front. I need a cheater lens in my helmet and the electronic I have and the electronic ones I have looked at won't accommodate the cheater lens. There might be one out there now that will I haven't looked in a few years.
One of the nice thing about the newer electronic helmets is they have a much lighter shade when they are waiting for the arc, so you can actually see through them! I used some new ones and they are much nicer than the one that I still have.
One of the nice thing about the newer electronic helmets is they have a much lighter shade when they are waiting for the arc, so you can actually see through them! I used some new ones and they are much nicer than the one that I still have.
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golfpin
Re: ac arc problem
Thanks for the update redneckalbertan,
Very curious about the cheater lens, I have made enquiries here in RSA quite a few years ago and all I got was a blank look. Strange because it impacts on such a huge part of the working population basically most men over the age of 40 give or take seem to need "readers" for that long arm syndrome.
Am I correct in assuming when you refer to cheaters you are referring to an Arc lens that has a shade factor of say 8, which is what I use, but it also has magnification factor of say 1.5 built into it. I have read about it but have never been able to find them!
This should be of no surprise to me when I came back to RSA in 1970 after a few years in the UK working on F1 race cars a lot of the welding on the space frames was a technique referred to by the Brits as "nickel bronze welding'" very similar to brazing. The "cheater" in this case was the lens that was used with oxy/acty, they were what was referred to as "cobalt" in colour, it filtered out the green that was given off by the Nickel bronze rod and was as clear as daylight, if you used the normal oxy/acty. for steel welding, that seems to come with every welding set you could not see properly. I have seen a number of posts where there have been enquiries by folks in the US who were rebuilding a race car from the 60/70,s and were puzzled by the "welding" technique, seems to be a lost art.
Are the cheater lens,s you are referring to available from the local welding supply store?
Thanks for your input, hope the winter is not too bad.
Cheers Golfpin
Very curious about the cheater lens, I have made enquiries here in RSA quite a few years ago and all I got was a blank look. Strange because it impacts on such a huge part of the working population basically most men over the age of 40 give or take seem to need "readers" for that long arm syndrome.
Am I correct in assuming when you refer to cheaters you are referring to an Arc lens that has a shade factor of say 8, which is what I use, but it also has magnification factor of say 1.5 built into it. I have read about it but have never been able to find them!
This should be of no surprise to me when I came back to RSA in 1970 after a few years in the UK working on F1 race cars a lot of the welding on the space frames was a technique referred to by the Brits as "nickel bronze welding'" very similar to brazing. The "cheater" in this case was the lens that was used with oxy/acty, they were what was referred to as "cobalt" in colour, it filtered out the green that was given off by the Nickel bronze rod and was as clear as daylight, if you used the normal oxy/acty. for steel welding, that seems to come with every welding set you could not see properly. I have seen a number of posts where there have been enquiries by folks in the US who were rebuilding a race car from the 60/70,s and were puzzled by the "welding" technique, seems to be a lost art.
Are the cheater lens,s you are referring to available from the local welding supply store?
Thanks for your input, hope the winter is not too bad.
Cheers Golfpin
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warmstrong1955
- Posts: 3568
- Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:05 pm
- Location: Northern Nevada
Re: ac arc problem
I used to pick up cheaters from the local welding supplier.
All I have used, are installed with a shaded lens.
http://store.millerwelds.com/commerce/p ... dID=212236
My problem became starting the arc. I'd drop my hood, and go, and it took me a second or two to focus and find the bead, and see what I was doing. Even with the cheaters.
A few years ago, I bought an automatic darkening hood. I haven't seen cheaters for those, but instead of my bifocals, I have some cheap reading glasses.
Much Better!
Bill
All I have used, are installed with a shaded lens.
http://store.millerwelds.com/commerce/p ... dID=212236
My problem became starting the arc. I'd drop my hood, and go, and it took me a second or two to focus and find the bead, and see what I was doing. Even with the cheaters.
A few years ago, I bought an automatic darkening hood. I haven't seen cheaters for those, but instead of my bifocals, I have some cheap reading glasses.
Much Better!
Bill
Today's solutions are tomorrow's problems.
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golfpin
Re: ac arc problem
Good evening to all who have responded,
have just been on to the web RSA re cheaters and surprise they agency for Miller equipment is none other than the local idiot group Afrox who have a complete stranglehold on the gas market in this country.. so much for the monoplies act. They are the same group that I tried in the past to try and get magnified lens,s.
Interestingly enough while paging through one of the welding sights earlier this evening I came across somebody looking for information on a acetylene generator. I have used one of these albeit many years ago and I to have been trying to source one because the Afrox giant has pushed the price and the rental and the demurrage to such a height that it is not affordable hence the quest for a generator. Not surprising carbide is freely available here and the min quantities are not bad 50 KG drum but as yet I don,t know the price, role on Monday.
Even thought of building one but I know enough about Acetylene to very cautious, it is not as simple as dripping water on carbide.
In an effort to get a corrective lens I might try Miller direct.
Thanks to all, hope the winter is not going to be that bad.
Cheers Golfpin 22 C 10 pm midsummer
have just been on to the web RSA re cheaters and surprise they agency for Miller equipment is none other than the local idiot group Afrox who have a complete stranglehold on the gas market in this country.. so much for the monoplies act. They are the same group that I tried in the past to try and get magnified lens,s.
Interestingly enough while paging through one of the welding sights earlier this evening I came across somebody looking for information on a acetylene generator. I have used one of these albeit many years ago and I to have been trying to source one because the Afrox giant has pushed the price and the rental and the demurrage to such a height that it is not affordable hence the quest for a generator. Not surprising carbide is freely available here and the min quantities are not bad 50 KG drum but as yet I don,t know the price, role on Monday.
Even thought of building one but I know enough about Acetylene to very cautious, it is not as simple as dripping water on carbide.
In an effort to get a corrective lens I might try Miller direct.
Thanks to all, hope the winter is not going to be that bad.
Cheers Golfpin 22 C 10 pm midsummer
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steamin10
- Posts: 6712
- Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 11:52 pm
- Location: NW Indiana. Close to Lake Michigan S. tip
Re: ac arc problem
I have had glasses since my senior year in high school. I am near sighted, so they help me not under a hood. As my eyes get worse with age (63) I need to see what I am looking at, so for a while I had dime store reading glasses epoxied into a helm to simply magnify the image. I use a 2.0 lens now that is only to give a bigger image, that is layered with the lens filter. It is the standard for me with all 3 helms I use.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.
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redneckalbertan
- Posts: 1274
- Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:39 am
- Location: South Central Alberta
Re: ac arc problem
In case you have not found the answer to one of your questions, no the cheater lens is not the same as your welding lens. At least as far as I have seen.
Here is the other post I wrote that I mentioned above: http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/vie ... er#p323362
Here is the other post I wrote that I mentioned above: http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/vie ... er#p323362
Re: ac arc problem
Sir,
I cannot help you with your eyesight sadly having the problem myself, but perhaps there are other causes for your problems!
You mention a buzzbox, so I assume a low open circuit voltage AC transformer welder, traditionally harder to strike an arc with.
If nothing has changed but your eyes & motor skills, then this is a fate to accept.
Before you do that, go over ALL the connections you have skilled access to, from the line to the stinger and work clamp. All should be clean shiny and tight.
Any aloonyum requires inox paste.
AWS 6013 should be an easy striking rod. If you could get E7014, easier yet. E6011 is also easy to start but being a deep digger with minimum fluxing may take getting used to.
Hou die blink kant bo.
I cannot help you with your eyesight sadly having the problem myself, but perhaps there are other causes for your problems!
You mention a buzzbox, so I assume a low open circuit voltage AC transformer welder, traditionally harder to strike an arc with.
If nothing has changed but your eyes & motor skills, then this is a fate to accept.
Before you do that, go over ALL the connections you have skilled access to, from the line to the stinger and work clamp. All should be clean shiny and tight.
Any aloonyum requires inox paste.
AWS 6013 should be an easy striking rod. If you could get E7014, easier yet. E6011 is also easy to start but being a deep digger with minimum fluxing may take getting used to.
Hou die blink kant bo.
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golfpin
Re: ac arc problem
Thank you Carm,
and to all who have contributed so much. Will pursue all that has been put forward and respond. Carm is jy miskien van Suid Afrika of Afrikaans spreekend of Hollands. Maar baie dankie vir die ondersteuning as jy will, my direk contact my besonderherde is schultzp@telkomsa.net.
Hope this has not transcended the rules of forum
Contacted the idiot giant Afrox [African Oxygen ] yesterday and as I expected were totally disinterested in my request for info on "cheater" lens,s and they are the Miller agents! Gave me a story that they might run into trouble with the Optometry society because they, Afrox could not sell corrective lens,s makes me wonder about the magnifying [short arm glasses] you by at any drugstore or discount chain .........sickening.
The Afrox group that have a complete monoply on the gas supply in this country are faced with a 2.5 million Rand fine for price fixing, this was headlines in the Sunday papers! Perhaps I am tilting at castles but If I think of the number of people out there who have the same problem [sight[ and because of Afrox,s size and attitude re Oxy/acetylene we are forced to turn o the Little ac welder to try and effect repairs. Sorry if this is a bit off topic but it does relate. I believe you have a body in the US that might prevent this sort of thing happening "Monoploies Commission" perhaps.
Golfpin
Apologies to the moderators if I have gone too far off point. Please feel free to act as you see fit.
and to all who have contributed so much. Will pursue all that has been put forward and respond. Carm is jy miskien van Suid Afrika of Afrikaans spreekend of Hollands. Maar baie dankie vir die ondersteuning as jy will, my direk contact my besonderherde is schultzp@telkomsa.net.
Hope this has not transcended the rules of forum
Contacted the idiot giant Afrox [African Oxygen ] yesterday and as I expected were totally disinterested in my request for info on "cheater" lens,s and they are the Miller agents! Gave me a story that they might run into trouble with the Optometry society because they, Afrox could not sell corrective lens,s makes me wonder about the magnifying [short arm glasses] you by at any drugstore or discount chain .........sickening.
The Afrox group that have a complete monoply on the gas supply in this country are faced with a 2.5 million Rand fine for price fixing, this was headlines in the Sunday papers! Perhaps I am tilting at castles but If I think of the number of people out there who have the same problem [sight[ and because of Afrox,s size and attitude re Oxy/acetylene we are forced to turn o the Little ac welder to try and effect repairs. Sorry if this is a bit off topic but it does relate. I believe you have a body in the US that might prevent this sort of thing happening "Monoploies Commission" perhaps.
Golfpin
Apologies to the moderators if I have gone too far off point. Please feel free to act as you see fit.
Re: ac arc problem
Nie Meneer, ek is van Amerika afkomstig, ek ken net 'n bitje taal.
"Hope this has not transcended the rules of forum."
Likely not, but interpretation is in order for general readership. We note that Golfpin is from the R.S.A. Among the languages of that country is Afrikaans. Since his post concerned welding my closing to him was a play on words.
Keep the bright (shiny) side up
An encouraging phrase akin to an atta boy, keep yer nose clean, go get 'em.
His rejoinder asks if I am from his country or perhaps Dutch, and thanks us.
"Hope this has not transcended the rules of forum."
Likely not, but interpretation is in order for general readership. We note that Golfpin is from the R.S.A. Among the languages of that country is Afrikaans. Since his post concerned welding my closing to him was a play on words.
Keep the bright (shiny) side up
An encouraging phrase akin to an atta boy, keep yer nose clean, go get 'em.
His rejoinder asks if I am from his country or perhaps Dutch, and thanks us.