Copper Boiler life

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daves1459
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Copper Boiler life

Post by daves1459 »

I recently acquired a LE 1" Atlantic with a copper boiler. I was told the last time the loco was steamed was 40 years ago. The boiler was silver soldered. Is there a life expectancy for a silver soldered copper boiler? I have always thought the copper to be a lifetime material. But what about the silver soldered joints and seams? Does heating and cooling along with age degrade the strength of the silver solder? Of course, the boiler will be pressure tested to ensure it is sound. Just curious if time and use may have degraded the overall strength. I have had experience with degraded old soft solder joints. Particularly when the solder had lead in it. The old solder gets a thin white coating on it and tends to crumble. I understand the lead has an affinity for the oxygen in air. Can the same thing happen to silver solders?

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Bill Shields
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Re: Copper Boiler life

Post by Bill Shields »

A proper silver solder job is forever.

Killer is scale on the inside.

Leaded solder 'caulking' on weepy joints has a finite life.

40 years puts your boiler smack in the middle of maybe done with sil phos solder, which has a definite life around sulphur.

Test test test.

Be suspicious of brass fittings and bushings, which can disintegrate with time in hot water service.

Strip off the cladding and get down to bare boiler

I would take everything that can be unscrewed off.

After that, were it me, I would start with very low pressure air (2-3 psi) and the boiler in a tank of water, looking for bubbles.
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gwrdriver
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Re: Copper Boiler life

Post by gwrdriver »

I would add that 40 years ago a hobby-wide campaign to eliminate sil-phos from boiler building had been underway for some time, however many die-hard old hands, and a few propagandized new hands, continued to disregard those warnings. So yours could actually go either way, and there are ways to tell which solder material was used. Otherwise I agree with everything Bill has said.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Copper Boiler life

Post by Bill Shields »

Close up pictures of a solder joint will tell what it is.

When the sil phos begins to fail...it becomes a porous sprinkler... unrepairable
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daves1459
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Re: Copper Boiler life

Post by daves1459 »

gwrdriver wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:09 pm I would add that 40 years ago a hobby-wide campaign to eliminate sil-phos from boiler building had been underway for some time, however many die-hard old hands, and a few propagandized new hands, continued to disregard those warnings. So yours could actually go either way, and there are ways to tell which solder material was used. Otherwise, I agree with everything Bill has said.
What are the ways to tell which solder material was used? I used Sil Fos only once years ago. I didn't penetrate the joint like silver solder and tended to build up as opposed to a nice fillet. In the end I didn't really like the stuff.

Thanks to you and Bill for your input and advice. I'll look into the boiler construction further.

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Bill Shields
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Re: Copper Boiler life

Post by Bill Shields »

Look at it

Sol phos makes a very distinctive color of joint.

If you know what you are looking for, it becomes clear.
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gwrdriver
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Re: Copper Boiler life

Post by gwrdriver »

Dave,
The primary ones are that since sil-phos doesn't flow, or flow well, it needs to be pushed into place often resulting an uneven build-up of fillet, sometimes even lumpy. Properly done silver solder wicks and makes neat fillets. If overheated, which happens more often than you'd think, sil-phos will boil and the bubbles can be seen. Silver solder can be boiled also but the bubbles tend to be reabsorbed.
The other primary indicator is color. Sil-phos tends to have a faint yellow'ish caste to it, rather than a silver color. Silver solder can have a yellow tint to it also, depending upon the Mfg and the amount of copper in the alloy, but the silver content usually distinguishes itself from sil-phos by its brightness.
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PRR5406
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Re: Copper Boiler life

Post by PRR5406 »

Is there a recommended treatment for removing mineral deposited from inside a copper boiler?
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apm
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Re: Copper Boiler life

Post by apm »

gwrdriver wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:12 pm Dave,
The primary ones are that since sil-phos doesn't flow, or flow well, it needs to be pushed into place often resulting an uneven build-up of fillet, sometimes even lumpy. Properly done silver solder wicks and makes neat fillets. If overheated, which happens more often than you'd think, sil-phos will boil and the bubbles can be seen. Silver solder can be boiled also but the bubbles tend to be reabsorbed.
The other primary indicator is color. Sil-phos tends to have a faint yellow'ish caste to it, rather than a silver color. Silver solder can have a yellow tint to it also, depending upon the Mfg and the amount of copper in the alloy, but the silver content usually distinguishes itself from sil-phos by its brightness.
If the stuff didn't flow that well why was it used so often years ago? Was it cheaper or something?
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Bill Shields
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Re: Copper Boiler life

Post by Bill Shields »

Needs no flux on copper.

There was also phos copper rod
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gwrdriver
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Re: Copper Boiler life

Post by gwrdriver »

Yes . . . because it was cheap! Cheaper than silver solder anyway, and in the minds of many the cheapness made it "aww it's just as good." And for a time most of us thought it was.
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