Successes and failures on the WC&OV

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Gra2472
Posts: 273
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:02 pm
Location: Monte Rio California

Successes and failures on the WC&OV

Post by Gra2472 »

Good morning live steamers.

As I am sure you are all aware, every live steamer has his or her share of successes and failures. Out on the WC&OV I have had a few this past week. After an extensive year long overhaul of my Allen 2-6-0, which included new plumbing, installation of a dynamo, installation of baffles and an arch in the firebox, a new firing valve, installation of brakes and new brake stand, installation of oil cups on the rods, inspection of the running gear, and an attempt at repairing the valve gear, I finally had a chance to take the locomotive out on the railroad. After chasing down a few minor issues with the injectors, and a leaky washout plug, the mogul made her first run on Thursday.

However, the successes of the new injectors, and firing system were overshadowed by the failure of the valve gear repairs that started the whole project. When I purchased the locomotive in 2019, it ran rather poorly. The timing was just awful and no matter who tried to time it, it just wouldn't stay square, and flatly refused to run in reverse. So I took it apart, which meant taking the boiler off to get to the valve gear. I found much to my chagrin that the inner rocker arm on the fireman's side, and the outer rocker arm on the engineers side (Stevenson motion) were extremely loose on their respective shafts. In the tradition of logging style of steam railroading in which I was raised at various shortline railroads, I made an attempt at repairing the damaged parts rather than replacing them. I'll replace them when I get my cnc mill working sometime before the next apocalypse.

Here's what I found. It looks like the locomotive suffered some damage long before it arrived at the WC&OV. The engineers side valve rod had an S-shape to it that tells me that the locomotive might have tried to take a nap on one side. This likely damaged the valve rod, which then fouled the rear cross head guide bracket and caused excessive strain on the rocker arm. Over time, this caused it to loosen on the shaft causing the steel pin to wear into the bronze rocker, which just made the damage worse. When located, it had about 8 degrees of play in it on the shaft, which translated to a fair amount of lost motion at the valve.

That's side A, now for side B.

After finding this problem with the engineers side, I went through the valve gear and found that the fireman's side had the same problem, only far far worse. The inner rocker arm was extremely loose on the shaft with about 15 degrees of lost motion. Its amazing that the locomotive ran at all! After investigating the issue I could see where material around the pin had been displaced by the ever increasing hammering of the valve gear as the rocker loosened over time. I believe that the root cause was a loose fitting pin, and slip fit, rather than press fit of the rocker arm on the shaft.

The solution seemed simple. I took the parts apart, cleaned them, and drilled new slightly larger holes in the rocker arms and shafts to take up the egged out wear. This did work to tighten up the lost motion, but not well enough. As I should have known, compressed air is no substitute for steam. As I discovered this past week as I tested and adjusted the locomotive under steam, the stresses involved were more than my first attempt could withstand. This became quite clear as the locomotive tackled the hill in the back of the property and simply said...nope, not today. She stopped dead and refused to move. It did not take long to discover the fault in my repair. In increasing the size of the holes in the rockers to take up the egged out damage, I failed to think through the issue of the rocker still being rather loose on the shaft itself. There was still lost motion and lots of it! I just didn't see it under air pressure when I tested the repairs last year. Steam is a powerful truth serum.

Since our golden spike ceremony is coming up in July, and my friend John will be here this evening to install the air pump he rebuild for me, I am under a time crunch to get the locomotive in service. I can't disappoint my guests with the steam locomotive sitting on a table as the center piece.

I decided that drastic surgery was necessary to save the patient.

Yesterday after work I took the boiler off of the locomotive to have a good close look at the problem and decide if I could make a somewhat "temporarily permanent" repair as my father would say. I decided on an unorthodox and probably sacrilegious approach. (Let me get my steel hardhat...ok....I'm ready.)

I removed the lose rocker arms from the shafts, and split them with a razor saw. I did this more or less in place on the fireman's side since I really did not want to fight with disassembling the valve gear entirely. You can still see the filings on the machinery in the photo. I since cleaned it up of course. On the engineers side I was able to remove the rocker entirely and carefully split it on the work bench. I then reinstalled them with grade 8 socket head screws and double nutted them down. Splitting them seems to be the right answer. I was able to take up slack in the loose fitting shaft holes in the rocker arms by essentially turning them into clamps. They are rock solid, and square to the shafts and have no lost motion, or wobble in any direction.

After dinner (and my dishes duties) I reinstalled the boiler and reconnected everything but the tiny lubricator lines. My hands were just to slick and tired to fuss with those little compression fittings. I hope to have it under steam today after work. Total time from start to finish, 4.5 hours.

G
Attachments
First run.jpg
in pieces.jpg
fixed.jpg
On the table.jpg
7.5" Allen Mogul
3 x 7.5" West Valley Baldwin Westinghouse Electrics
The railroad is almost done.
G. Augustus
Monte Rio, Ca.
Marty_Knox
Posts: 1724
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:50 pm
Location: Michigan, USA

Re: Successes and failures on the WC&OV

Post by Marty_Knox »

The rocker arms and rocker boxes on the Allen/Harpur locomotives are a never ending source of trouble. I now make the rocker boxes in steel with bronze bushings. I make the rocker arms in steel too, and TIG weld them to the shafts.
Gra2472
Posts: 273
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:02 pm
Location: Monte Rio California

Re: Successes and failures on the WC&OV

Post by Gra2472 »

Marty, good to hear from you. Put me down for a set next time to make some.
7.5" Allen Mogul
3 x 7.5" West Valley Baldwin Westinghouse Electrics
The railroad is almost done.
G. Augustus
Monte Rio, Ca.
Marty_Knox
Posts: 1724
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:50 pm
Location: Michigan, USA

Re: Successes and failures on the WC&OV

Post by Marty_Knox »

Gra2472 wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 9:22 am Marty, good to hear from you. Put me down for a set next time to make some.
I don't make them for sale, just for my own locomotives.
Maybe Steve Alley would be interested in making them.
ccvstmr
Posts: 2230
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:37 am
Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Successes and failures on the WC&OV

Post by ccvstmr »

Garrett...interesting review and analysis of the problems uncovered/discovered with your mogul. Sad too. Having been there, done that, would add...take your time and do it right.

Over the past 21 years, have rebuilt much of my Rutland ten wheeler...and that includes replacing the boiler...haven't touched the valve gear (yet). Learned a few things along the way as well. One of those is...it's amazing how long a short cut is! Band-aids and short cuts are not long term solutions. Like you, wanted to get the loco back on the rails ASAP and get steaming again. Instead, was "coached" to make the effort and perform repairs/upgrades as well as possible. Taking the time then, paid dividends back in the future (more rail time, less shop time).

My friend, "Honest Dave" purchased a Disney 4-4-0 just a few years. Originally started in the '50's, Dave was the 5th owner. He tore the locomotive down completely to the point where there was a copper boiler and a pile of frame pieces, nuts 'n bolts, piping, fittings, etc. Frame pieces were sent out to be plated instead of painted. Slowly the loco went back together. Modifications and less-than-acceptable machining practices were corrected or replaced completely. Originally thought to be "good enough", an uneven driver spacing issue was improved this past Winter.

So, yes, when a piece of equipment is purchased/acquired secondhand...or third, or fourth...you inherit all the poor practices built into the model from the start. Now is the time bring the equipment up to the highest level of accuracy you can attain. Poor material decisions can also be addressed. You're building for the long run...as such, do it right now. As for the boiler, think you'll find in time you can remove/install a boiler in a matter of hours (removal always goes faster than installation). But then realize, you don't want to do that too many times. Understand your desire to have your loco available for your Golden Spike ceremony...but don't rush it. Going back 3 steps to move forward 4 steps is the only option. Sometimes, you just need to take the bull by the tail and face the situation! Take your time today...you'll be happier tomorrow.

Good luck and keep us posted with your progress. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
Gra2472
Posts: 273
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:02 pm
Location: Monte Rio California

Re: Successes and failures on the WC&OV

Post by Gra2472 »

Good morning Carl

I am not surprised to be finding inherited issues with my mogul. Anything secondhand has inherent problems, mostly from a lack of knowledge of the history of the locomotive. I can get the boiler off in about an hour, but hooking it back up, specifically the mechanical lubricator lines takes forever. Those tiny fittings drive me crazy. I'll post an update when I get the issues sorted. The repair I made to the inner rocker arm illuminated another couple of problems that I will have to address before putting the locomotive back into service.
7.5" Allen Mogul
3 x 7.5" West Valley Baldwin Westinghouse Electrics
The railroad is almost done.
G. Augustus
Monte Rio, Ca.
User avatar
NP317
Posts: 4557
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: Northern Oregon, USA

Re: Successes and failures on the WC&OV

Post by NP317 »

When you steam and run the locomotive again, make sure the lubricator is working, and lubricating the slide valves first!
My Ten Wheeler had a failure of the mechanical lubricator to the right side only. The valve gear rocker arms on that side ended up damaged.
This was caused by the huge increase in friction between the slide valve and the valve face.
After performing some repairs, the locomotive was successfully run for several years.

Eventually, the slow increase in lost motion from many pins and bushings wearing convinced me to totally rebuild the valve gear this past year, including machining new steel clevises and pins, and hardening them. I also removed the lost motion in those problematic rocker arms, and recently I am slowly re-timing the locomotive. I need to go all the way back to the beginning of that process and not try a simpler method, because that has not worked.

A major improvement can be made to the Allen designs (and all slide valve engines) by fabricating balanced slide valves for them. One of my well-respected Steam Friends did just that for his Ten Wheeler, and the valve gear wear decreased considerably because of the decreases stresses caused by friction. I hope someone can make available balanced slide valves that can be retro-fitted to existing Allen locomotives. And of course make the design available to Steve Alley of Allen Locomotives for production.

My thoughts.
RussN
Marty_Knox
Posts: 1724
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:50 pm
Location: Michigan, USA

Re: Successes and failures on the WC&OV

Post by Marty_Knox »

Marty_Knox wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 9:12 am The rocker arms and rocker boxes on the Allen/Harpur locomotives are a never ending source of trouble. I now make the rocker boxes in steel with bronze bushings. I make the rocker arms in steel too, and TIG weld them to the shafts.
Here are some pictures of one of my steel rocker boxes - no bushings yet.
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Berkman
Posts: 679
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Successes and failures on the WC&OV

Post by Berkman »

Or.... convert it to baker, walscheart or SOU VG...
Gra2472
Posts: 273
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:02 pm
Location: Monte Rio California

Re: Successes and failures on the WC&OV

Post by Gra2472 »

Oh I’d love to convert it to outside motion. Walschearts would be great but I don’t have the engineering skills for that.
7.5" Allen Mogul
3 x 7.5" West Valley Baldwin Westinghouse Electrics
The railroad is almost done.
G. Augustus
Monte Rio, Ca.
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