I understand castings cost a lot, but why drawings?

[shild]

Had an interesting conversation with my boss this week. Last week, he greatly underestimated how long it takes to build a live steamer when he said "3 weeks" so I corrected him. This week, I asked him what he thinks a set of drawings and wheel castings might cost for a 6 wheeled engine. He said "drawings will cost $295 and a casting will cost $150". So I said $150 per wheel or for all 6 wheels? He said "$150 per wheel cause these steam clubbin goons make it their whole lives!". I think he also said something about the drawings being a space wasting permanent life long burden, cause once you pay about $300 for a big cardboard tube of paper, you can never throw it away as if you had payed $!0 nor can you find a good place to keep it where it won't get crushed, torn or wet. Doesn't fit good on your book case and looks cluttery if you do make it fit. Like it or not he has some good points. But why does a set of drawings cost so much anyway or am I just looking at the wrong source for drawings? Also why do castings cost so much? Is it because each particular pouring of metal is dangerous? This I couldn't explain to my boss.

[gwrdriver]

There are numerous answers to your question, and I'll address one.
Often the owner of the design (ie, the "drawings") is also the designer, and draftsman, and publisher, and is deriving some part of a living (or spending money) on the sale of their design. Also sometimes the sellers of drawings are paying a royalty to the designer or owner of the copyrighted originals. Considering that a well thought-out design and drawings might take many 100s of hours (and save you at least that amount of time), the cost doesn't seem so unreasonable.

[Rich_Carlstedt]

Castings first
To make castings, you need a pattern, and even though it is mostly wood, It takes time and effort to do that
Also know there are very few (compared to 1970) Foundries today. Mostly due to EPA requirements that drove them out of business
So that means off-shore sources and higher costs

Drawings - Try making drawings and see how much time it takes. So if it takes 500 hours to make a set of drawings and you would normally make 20 bucks an hour , thats 10,000 dollars and you need to sell 50 sets of drawings torecover the effort, but wait,Printing large sheets costs money, maybe 3 bucks a sheet (minimum) and 10 sheets adds another 30 dollars ,so now you have to sell 65 sheets--- how big is the market ?
Have never known any Hobby guy that got rich in the Hobby...
Printing in 8 1/2 x 11 wouyld save some money... but not all

Rich

[Harlock]

You're not just paying for the paper when you pay for drawings. you're paying for a copyrighted work that, as Rich Carlstedt points out, took hundreds of hours to develop and perfect, and you're paying for a small business owner's costs, overhead and profit, like any other product that is made of raw materials but is greater than the sum of its parts.

Similarly, as a professional photographer, when I sell a photograph, it is for much more than the value of the materials, taking into account the $10,000 of camera equipment, overhead of travel and lifetime of experience applied to get the photo you would want to buy a print of. When I license a photograph for commercial use it is much the same.

Also, I'll let you in on a reality - in the case of Allen Models, and probably in the case of all other castings and plans vendors out there - the majority of sales is in the drawings - a small percentage of folks who buy the plans actually go on to complete an entire locomotive. In order to keep the castings affordable and well stocked and the lights on, the drawing sales are a large part of that equation. The whole business functions when each part contributes.

This is why Allen Models under Steve Alley will never sell digital copies of the drawings. It is too easy and convenient to distribute copies of an already digitized file.

A complete drawing set that will allow you to build a locomotive that actually works is a huge undertaking. I do a lot of drawing updates and individual part drawings for Steve, myself and others, but I have yet to complete a drawing set for a full locomotive. I simply do not have the time in my life right now. I once started on a complete drawing set for a new locomotive design of my own, and I had to give it up as I could not commit the required time and resources to it. It really taught me a lesson. Perhaps some day.

[jcbrock]

Rich and Mike touched on it, but to emphasize, part of the drawing cost is the knowledge of the designer in addition to the making of the drawings: how much machining allowance is required in one place, how much clearance should be left in another, even material selection. It's well worth the cost, compared to if you were paying an engineering designer a going rate (we billed a minimum of $270 an hour up to several multiples of that depending on the skills required for custom work).

[Bill Shields]

Anyone who has to ask this question has never sat down and designed anything...and would be the first person to give away a copy of drawings because they purchased them and have the right to do so.

[Greg_Lewis]

Here's a real example. I made a pattern for the drivers for my locomotive. I spent about two hours researching the prototype and figuring out how to apply that to the model. I drew it up the old-fashioned way, with pencil. That took about an hour. Then I spent about three days making the pattern. And making that pattern wasn't just slapping some wood together. I had to figure out how to sculpt the shapes and make it all fit together. The materials cost was low but there were a few false starts and failures along the way. Then I had to find a foundry, communicate with them, get the pattern to them, pick up the finished castings, and pay them. Time involved with the foundry was about two days. So five days = 40 hours.

Now let's say I'm doing this as a business. How much money do I need to put in my pocket at the end of the year? Let's say $70,000 for a decent living. There are about 250 working days in a year. A little math shows that I need to net $35 per hour to end up with $70k at the end. But we also have fixed costs. I have no idea what a commercial shop space would rent for, plus utilities, and the all-important insurances including expensive product liability. Then there is the cost of my machinery including maintenance, replacement, and consumables. And, when you're selling a product, there is a cost to maintain an inventory. You have to pay up front for the product you make and then sit on that until, and if, it sells. That money costs money. But let's say it's $40,000 for all the fixed costs. So we have to gross $110,000 for the year. So I have to bill $55 per hour in order to keep the doors open.

But wait. Not all hours are billable. Not everything you do in running a business results in income. The reality is that I will probably only produce income for, if I'm lucky, half of those hours. So now we're up to $110 per hour. So the 40 hours I spent above add up to $4400. I'll need to sell 30 of those castings to make $4400. But wait. It's unlikely that I'll sell them all right away. I may have to sit on some of them for a couple of years. So in the mean time, I have to figure out how to put food on the table and pay my rent.

Not to mention the limited market of our hobby. Last time I checked, the circulation of Live Steam magazine was somewhere in the range of about 6000. How many of those are active builders?

Enough. I could go on. It gets complicated in a hurry, my friend. According to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, half of all small businesses fail within the first five years.

So I think everyone on this forum is grateful that our suppliers are able to get us what we need regardless of cost. For some, it's a labor of love and they have other sources of income. But many of the costs remain.

[shild]

Also, I'll let you in on a reality - in the case of Allen Models, and probably in the case of all other castings and plans vendors out there - the majority of sales is in the drawings - a small percentage of folks who buy the plans actually go on to complete an entire locomotive. In order to keep the castings affordable and well stocked and the lights on, the drawing sales are a large part of that equation. The whole business functions when each part contributes.

This is why Allen Models under Steve Alley will never sell digital copies of the drawings. It is too easy and convenient to distribute copies of an already digitized file.

.

Was not aware of that! What do you think the percentage is who don't complete one? I know that in the automotive world that only 1/4 of the people who take their car apart for a frame off restoration will actually get it back together and running again. Is it similar to that?

[ccvstmr]

Without sounding condescending, people have known me to say..."youth and innocence can not replace age and experience". Most anyone with basic skills and tools can fabricate parts. The knowledge and experience needed to design those parts, let alone design a locomotive or other engine, takes a magnitude more time and effort. You don't get the time and effort for nothing.

During my corporate working years, was sometimes subjected to what was called a "360 Feedback Review" as part of my annual appraisal. My boss, selected colleagues, customers (engineers in the manufacturing plants) and suppliers were provided with a survey and rating of their dealing with me (like I would really want someone that didn't like me to comment!). Seemed more like an administrative waste of time than anything else.

To me, the best and shortest 360 Feedback went something like this...
Q: How did you get to be so good at what you do?
A: Made a lot of mistakes.
Q: Why did you make so many mistakes?
A: That's how I got to be so good!

Sometimes knowing what NOT to do, is more important and valuable than knowing what to do! I wasn't referred to as an SME (subject matter expert) for nothing.

People on this board gladly and freely share their knowledge and experience. Have been most fortunate to create new friendships with some, even though we've never met face to face. When you deal with suppliers...if they can't make money to keep their business going today...they won't be around tomorrow to sell us the parts, materials and castings needed to support our hobby habit. Carl B.

[shild]

Here's a real example. I made a pattern for the drivers for my locomotive. I spent about two hours researching the prototype and figuring out how to apply that to the model. I drew it up the old-fashioned way, with pencil. That took about an hour. Then I spent about three days making the pattern. And making that pattern wasn't just slapping some wood together. I had to figure out how to sculpt the shapes and make it all fit together. The materials cost was low but there were a few false starts and failures along the way. Then I had to find a foundry, communicate with them, get the pattern to them, pick up the finished castings, and pay them. Time involved with the foundry was about two days. So five days = 40 hours.

Now let's say I'm doing this as a business. How much money do I need to put in my pocket at the end of the year? Let's say $70,000 for a decent living. There are about 250 working days in a year. A little math shows that I need to net $35 per hour to end up with $70k at the end. But we also have fixed costs. I have no idea what a commercial shop space would rent for, plus utilities, and the all-important insurances including expensive product liability. Then there is the cost of my machinery including maintenance, replacement, and consumables. And, when you're selling a product, there is a cost to maintain an inventory. You have to pay up front for the product you make and then sit on that until, and if, it sells. That money costs money. But let's say it's $40,000 for all the fixed costs. So we have to gross $110,000 for the year. So I have to bill $55 per hour in order to keep the doors open.

But wait. Not all hours are billable. Not everything you do in running a business results in income. The reality is that I will probably only produce income for, if I'm lucky, half of those hours. So now we're up to $110 per hour. So the 40 hours I spent above add up to $4400. I'll need to sell 30 of those castings to make $4400. But wait. It's unlikely that I'll sell them all right away. I may have to sit on some of them for a couple of years. So in the mean time, I have to figure out how to put food on the table and pay my rent.

Not to mention the limited market of our hobby. Last time I checked, the circulation of Live Steam magazine was somewhere in the range of about 6000. How many of those are active builders?

Enough. I could go on. It gets complicated in a hurry, my friend. According to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, half of all small businesses fail within the first five years.

So I think everyone on this forum is grateful that our suppliers are able to get us what we need regardless of cost. For some, it's a labor of love and they have other sources of income. But many of the costs remain.

Guess there really aren't enough customers to mass produce it at an inexpensive price. What happens when you go to the foundry? How do they charge you? You have to give them several patterns to do at the same time or it will be more expensive per wheel won't it?

[shild]

Anyone who has to ask this question has never sat down and designed anything...and would be the first person to give away a copy of drawings because they purchased them and have the right to do so.

Look at that, this one is dirt cheap, also saw virginia 4-4-0 plans that are cheap. Trying to understand why some plans are expensive and some cheap. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Raritan-by-Bil ... 0047.m2108

[NP317]

All of the postings above illustrate why I have never balked at purchasing drawings and castings at the asking price of the hobby supplier.
I am grateful for those suppliers who work endless hours to make items available to us the hobbyists.
Thanks, all.
RussN