Logging Disconnects

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ccvstmr
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by ccvstmr » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:36 am

Glenn Brooks wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:36 pm
Carl, looking good. did you bend the all the flat bar on a jig? And use a jig to align the holes? Always curious about these things!
Glenn
Hello Glenn,

Sorry, don't have any photos of the bending set up. But can tell you the flat bars (think those are 1/4 x 3/4 hot rolled steel) were bent using a good sized Dake arbor press. A die set up was used with two "V" blocks: bottom block was the open "V"...the top block had the "v" point facing down. Believe a stop was clamped to a locating bar behind the die for each of the bend locations. Bar length had to be controlled initially as I believe the bar was bent and then turned 180 to bend the other side.

"Bend angles" were controlled by putting different sized transfer punches at the bottom of the lower "V" block to control the depth of the press. Some experimentation was done initially to determine the proper sized transfer punch to achieve each of the desired bend angles.

A slotted fixture plate was set up on the mill with a stop at one end and riser blocks to support the different types of bars. That slot was wide enough for the ends of the different bars. The table was moved to the desired location and the hole drilled. The bars were flipped end for end and drilled again. The operation was repeated for other bars in that group before the table was indexed to the next hole location. The bars in the lower left part of the photo above had (10) holes. When I showed up, I offered to de-burr the holes on both sides of all the bars.

With COVID still around...my trips to that shop might be hit 'n miss. Will try to post updates when I can. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!

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ccvstmr
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by ccvstmr » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:38 am

NP317 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:37 pm
Intersted? Yes!!
Thanks for posting this.

That string of disconnects would look perfect behind my Mikado Polson Logging #90.
RussN
Hi Russ, will do my best to provide occasional updates to keep your interest peaked! Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!

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ccvstmr
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by ccvstmr » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:59 pm

Sorry it's been awhile for those you that expressed interest in the logging disconnect project. The disconnects are still being built. Parts are being made along with everything else that goes with a "ground up" construction project.

Several you inquired about the method used for bending the bars. So, as I try to bring the project up to date, thought I'd start by sharing some photos of the "bending machine".

Bending the bars was very low tech. A Dake press is used with a die holder. Instead of dies, the builder mounted a pair of mating "V" blocks in the die set. Believe he had to install longer guide pins because of the vertical distance needed. He would eventually find the point on the upper "V" that was doing the bulk of the bending work...was being rounded on the tip. His solution...install a hardened piece of steel in the tip...and keep going.

IMG_4566.JPG

Through trial and error, the builder would eventually find the right size transfer punch to lay in the "crotch" of the lower "V". This set the depth of the bend as well as the angle.

IMG_4569.JPG

A long flat bar was attached to the bottom "V". This helped to make sure the bends were perpendicular to the piece of steel. A "stop block" was clamped against the long guide bar that was moved after all the bends a particular distance from the end were bent. Probably, made the 1st bend, then flipped the bar 180 deg and repeated for the other end. Bars were made for 10 disconnect trucks...5 pairs total.

The bar requiring the most work was the side frame bottom member with (8) bends. As shown earlier...the side frame bar sets worked out.

Carl B.



IMG_4567.JPG
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!

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ccvstmr
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by ccvstmr » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:43 pm

You're probably wondering how much progress was made over the Winter months. Well, with so many other irons in the fire, the builder did not make as much progress as one might think. The main issue with the logging disconnects is that so many of the parts need to be fabricated BEFORE assembly could start. Otherwise, there's nothing to hold the truck together. A disconnect is not like a standard freight car truck where there's a bolster, (2) side frames, (2) wheel 'n axle sets, bearings and other assorted suspension hardware. There's a bit more hardware for the disconnect.

A fixture was set up on the mill so each bar could be drilled for the thru bolt holes. Here again, once a particular hole dimension was set, drill one end of the bar, flip the bar around 180 deg...and drill the opposite end. Repeat for all other similar bars. When that operation was completed for the 1st set of holes, index the mill table for the next set of holes. Whether talking about bending or drilling, consistent and repeatable bends and holes were needed. Holes were drilled slightly oversized for the 10-24 studs. In a few cases, had to run the drill thru the stack of holes to get the stud thru the holes (easily) and then nutted.

The first few side frames that were assembled used 3D printed journal boxes. Why? The builder didn't have enough cast iron journal boxes. So, he designed and programmed his own journal boxes. Since the wheels/axles don't need the same type of suspension as a "normal" freight car truck, it was thought this method COULD work. Time will tell if that concept works.

IMG_4170.JPG

In the next photo, we have one of the earlier attempts to fit parts together. Side frames for this truck had cast iron journal boxes. The builder was experimenting with the spacer for the log support. Later on, another idea was used for that support piece.

IMG_4196.JPG

When the builder was reasonably satisfied sub-assemblies could proceed, sides frames were sand blasted and painted. The longitudinal timbers for the "main frame" were fabricated which included gluing a couple white oak boards together. Running those over a jointer/planer to square up. Cut to length. Glued. Sanded, rounded the edges and eventually painted as well.

IMG_4552.JPG

As the builder continue to use his 3D printer more and more, he decided to try his hand at programming and printing builder/owner plates. He printed these "plates" with raised lettering. After painting the entire plate black, he would come back with a rubber roller that was rolled in white paint and then rolled over the raised lettering to transfer the film of paint to the plate. Here's a sample how this turned out. He would eventually redo the plate and program/print something that was a bit smaller.

IMG_4553.JPG

Within the last few weeks, the prototype disconnect truck really started to take shape. Once again, the 3D printer was used to make the logging support spacers. The outboard spacers were made to fit inside a short piece of aluminum square tube...using the piece of tubing to bear the log weight. There are (4) of those support across the entire width of the disconnect...(2) with tube supports...(2) without.

The center swivel plate also started to take shape along with the actual log bolsters. These were made by welding (2) pieces of steel "T" section together to make a "track". A second smaller "track" was made for the sliding log chocks. Chains for setting and locking the chocks in place in keyhole slots were made in the appropriate pieces.

IMG_4556.JPG

Here's another view.

IMG_4557.JPG

Is there still more work to do? Absolutely. The swivel plate will have (2) angled stops to keep the log tracks from swiveling too far. While each disconnect had manual brakes...this is being evaluated for working or non-working brakes. All this to be decided sometime soon.

How's that for a catch up? See you again soon. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!

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NP317
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by NP317 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:32 pm

Great progress Carl!
And I have just the locomotive to pull those disconnect trucks.
RussN

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makinsmoke
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by makinsmoke » Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:03 pm

FWIW,
Skeleton log cars were different than disconnects. The skeleton cars had a center sill running between the trucks typically constructed of three beams.
The same type of log bunks were used as on the disconnects.

Disconnects were sets of trucks that were not connected together except when loaded with logs. The logs were essentially the center sills.

I don't see any disconnects in Mallory Ferrell's West Side book, but plenty of flats and skels. I'm wondering if they had them, but had no way to roster the things. After all, they weren't cars until somebody threw a log or two on them...lol.

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makinsmoke
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by makinsmoke » Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:04 pm

That is just beautiful modeling.

It's what is great and what is painful about larger scales. Done right they are art. Because they are so large, you just have to put the detail there.

James Powell
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by James Powell » Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:22 am

I think you will find Disconnects were outlawed fairly early on. I think there is something in "Logging Railroads of the West" (Superior), about them not being legal for very long. They didn't allow for air brakes...

I know that there is some mention of them here on the island, in relation to one of the smaller mills/railroads in the Port Alberni area. This was to move long single logs (like 120 ft long at a time).

Saw Logs on Steel Rails, about Port Alberni, 6-7 gives some details.

James

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ccvstmr
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by ccvstmr » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:28 am

NP317 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:32 pm
Great progress Carl!
And I have just the locomotive to pull those disconnect trucks.
RussN
Thanx Russ...your comment is much appreciated. BUT...unless your loco is 2.5" scale...these logging disconnects would probably "dwarf" the loco. And yes, the builder is planning on fabricating some large "logs". Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!

User avatar
ccvstmr
Posts: 1904
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:37 am
Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by ccvstmr » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:43 am

makinsmoke wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:04 pm
That is just beautiful modeling.

It's what is great and what is painful about larger scales. Done right they are art. Because they are so large, you just have to put the detail there.
Brian...thank you, will be sure to pass along your comments. And you're right, with larger scales, small details take on more significance...in particular, when up close and personal with the models.

Have been trying to push my friend to "up his game" and get him to work at a level of detail he's not used to. He likes to equate work done by others as "watch maker" workmanship. Well, I don't model at that level...life is too short. I know live steamers and model engineers that consistently work at that level. Can appreciate the craftsmanship, time and effort that goes into such work...but I'd rather build several "good" models over a period of time as opposed to (1) super detailed model. I get to a point where I need to finish SOMETHING! Too much detail looks great...but makes the model fragile. All my equipment is built to be used. There's a level of abuse in there that goes with the territory. Also don't want to be repairing damage all the time either. Running the equipment thru the over haul shop 1x every 10-15 years is enough.

Regarding comments about skeleton vs disconnect logging equipment...these are disconnects. In the previous photos, the couplers had not been installed, but they will have loop 'n pin couplers. Both of which still need to be fabricated. I understand that in some cases there were poles with loops on the end to couple disconnects and stretch the distance between trucks. The only brakes on the real cars were manual brakes.

One last tidbit. If you're not familiar with these, check out "inclined logging" on Youtube. There are some interesting vids posted about operations where log trains were run up/down the West coast mountain regions. Yosemite Valley had several incline operations. Interesting stuff.

Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!

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ccvstmr
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by ccvstmr » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:49 am

James Powell wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:22 am
I think you will find Disconnects were outlawed fairly early on. I think there is something in "Logging Railroads of the West" (Superior), about them not being legal for very long. They didn't allow for air brakes...

James
Jim, there's no doubt about it...putting air brakes on disconnects would have been a nightmare. In particular, when trying to run air hoses between each truck. Even on these model disconnects, my friend and I are contemplating just hanging outboard brake beams and shoes and NOT getting involved with the intermediate linkages, but we're still looking at the mechanism and hardware that might be needed. There will be a brake wheel, pawl and ratchet on each truck...which for now, is more show than anything else. Thanks for posting.

Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!

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NP317
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by NP317 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:26 am

ccvstmr wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:28 am
NP317 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:32 pm
Great progress Carl!
And I have just the locomotive to pull those disconnect trucks.
RussN
Thanx Russ...your comment is much appreciated. BUT...unless your loco is 2.5" scale...these logging disconnects would probably "dwarf" the loco. And yes, the builder is planning on fabricating some large "logs". Carl B.
Oops! You are correct.
I can't just throw them in the dryer and shrink them down...
I can dream though...
RussN

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