Logging Disconnects

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Kimball McGinley
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by Kimball McGinley » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:09 pm

Regarding nested coil springs, it is a good idea to use one Left-hand wound and one Right-hand wound. This eliminates any chance of a coil from the unloaded spring getting in between the coils of the other spring. On my archbar trucks, the outer spring is the softer/taller of the two, since it sits in a pocket for location. The stiffer inner is just trapped inside the other. If your springs are instead located by a centering "boss," then you would want to do the opposite.

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ccvstmr
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Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by ccvstmr » Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:11 am

rkcarguy wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:00 pm
Beautiful work on the disconnects. The look like a dream to build for someone with access to a plasma or laser plate cutting table.
The safe part of me wants to see those logs chained down. In all the pictures I've seen of these, the only needed finish would be to drop them in seawater to develop a nice coat of rust and then slather the rest of the moving parts in grease and let wood chips stick to everything:)
RK...appreciate your comments. No, there's no fancy machine tools like you noted in my friends shop. Like any other model work...you know where you're starting and where you want to get to. And then...have to figure out how to make that journey happen.

Agree with the "safety aspect". But looking at logging photos, didn't really see many tie-downs in use. With the disconects, there's no good place to store such hardware making an "empty" trip back to the forest.

The pine logs used in the photos are sitting on the trunions with adjustable wheel chocks and centered as much as possible on truck. Will add, not sure any "small" chain would stand up to 300 pound log when it let's loose. Would more than likely tear something else up. Besides, if a log decides to roll off...it's not going to be reloaded easily. Thanks for commenting. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!

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ccvstmr
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by ccvstmr » Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:34 am

Kimball McGinley wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:09 pm
Regarding nested coil springs, it is a good idea to use one Left-hand wound and one Right-hand wound. This eliminates any chance of a coil from the unloaded spring getting in between the coils of the other spring. On my archbar trucks, the outer spring is the softer/taller of the two, since it sits in a pocket for location. The stiffer inner is just trapped inside the other. If your springs are instead located by a centering "boss," then you would want to do the opposite.
Kimball...right you are and yes, counter wound springs would never end up "nesting". Have no idea what my friend used for his spring-in-a-spring logging disconnect suspension modification.

When working on the trucks for the passenger car build a couple years, had someone make springs for those trucks based on the original springs that were cut from some spring stock. The new springs ended up being too "light" and didn't support the load as desired. That's when we opted
to go with a spring-in-a-spring design. The outer spring was more decorative.

Believe those springs WERE counter-wound, but the spring retainers were machined so the springs would never contact one another even if both had the same wind direction. The larger, outer spring had an exterior spring seat shoulder. The inner, stiffer spring had a recess and pilot. Don't think this was presented when building the passenger cars. So, here's some pix from several years back...

Spring in a spring at the bottom of the photo...

IMG_9749.JPG

Opposing upper and lower spring retrainers...

IMG_9754.JPG

Close up of the upper spring retainers showing the center pilot for the inner spring...

IMG_9800.JPG

Assembled truck/side frame with equalizer and spring suspension...

IMG_9752.JPG

Close up of the springs in the retainers...

IMG_9802.JPG

And when painted black and under the car...it's hard to see what's "inside"...

IMG_3931.JPG

Good point Kimball. Thanks for sharing. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!

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Dick_Morris
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by Dick_Morris » Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:19 am

I had thought about inner and outer springs for cosmetic purposes, but for my application I believe two actual springs of prototype wire diameter would be too stiff. My plan is to have an outer spring that took the load and a thin gauge wire inner spring covered with black Teflon electrical insulation sleeve. Although I expect I'll need to wind my own counter wound spring, the light gauge wire will make it easier.

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Adirondack
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by Adirondack » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:59 pm

ccvstmr wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:14 am
Update Time
So, if anybody knows of 2.5" scale cast alum link/pin couplers...please...shout out! Is there a back up plan? You bet. The builder has been able to program a 3D printed link/pin coupler with a core for resin casting...if it comes down to that.

Timmy Wheeler has plenty of L/P couplers. I know because I made the patterns and had them cast.

Email him at timmyville1 AT yahoo.com

Tell him Chris sent you.
.
FDM quality carter brothers L-P coupler.jpg
Carter Brothers L-P coupler split patterns with corebox.jpeg
coupler and wheel.jpg
Adirondack Car & Foundry
Check out our projects: https://www.facebook.com/ADKrail/
Visit our ALL-NEW online store: https://adirondackcarfoundry.square.site/

A little locomotive with 4 wheels on the track is a lot more fun
than a 1/2 finished one with 16 wheels on the bench!

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ccvstmr
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by ccvstmr » Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:51 pm

Adirondack wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:59 pm
ccvstmr wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:14 am
Update Time
So, if anybody knows of 2.5" scale cast alum link/pin couplers...please...shout out! Is there a back up plan? You bet. The builder has been able to program a 3D printed link/pin coupler with a core for resin casting...if it comes down to that.

Timmy Wheeler has plenty of L/P couplers. I know because I made the patterns and had them cast.

Email him at timmyville1 AT yahoo.com

Tell him Chris sent you.
.
FDM quality carter brothers L-P coupler.jpg

Carter Brothers L-P coupler split patterns with corebox.jpeg

coupler and wheel.jpg
Chris...thanx for the lead, but are those 1.5" scale or 2.5" scale? Big difference in the size of the L/P parts. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!

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Adirondack
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Location: southern CT

Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by Adirondack » Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:54 pm

ccvstmr wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:51 pm
Adirondack wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:59 pm
ccvstmr wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:14 am
Update Time
So, if anybody knows of 2.5" scale cast alum link/pin couplers...please...shout out! Is there a back up plan? You bet. The builder has been able to program a 3D printed link/pin coupler with a core for resin casting...if it comes down to that.

Timmy Wheeler has plenty of L/P couplers. I know because I made the patterns and had them cast.

Email him at timmyville1 AT yahoo.com

Tell him Chris sent you.
.
FDM quality carter brothers L-P coupler.jpg

Carter Brothers L-P coupler split patterns with corebox.jpeg

coupler and wheel.jpg
Chris...thanx for the lead, but are those 1.5" scale or 2.5" scale? Big difference in the size of the L/P parts. Carl B.
2.5" scale. Scaled exactly from the prototype.
.
DSC_1157.JPG
Adirondack Car & Foundry
Check out our projects: https://www.facebook.com/ADKrail/
Visit our ALL-NEW online store: https://adirondackcarfoundry.square.site/

A little locomotive with 4 wheels on the track is a lot more fun
than a 1/2 finished one with 16 wheels on the bench!

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ccvstmr
Posts: 1960
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:37 am
Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by ccvstmr » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:07 am

Adirondack wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:54 pm
ccvstmr wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:51 pm


Chris...thanx for the lead, but are those 1.5" scale or 2.5" scale? Big difference in the size of the L/P parts. Carl B.
2.5" scale. Scaled exactly from the prototype.
Chris...thanx for the scale clarification. Waxes and castings look nice. Will pass along the info to the "disconnected" builder. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!

rkcarguy
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Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by rkcarguy » Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:26 pm

ccvstmr wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:11 am
rkcarguy wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:00 pm
Beautiful work on the disconnects. The look like a dream to build for someone with access to a plasma or laser plate cutting table.
The safe part of me wants to see those logs chained down. In all the pictures I've seen of these, the only needed finish would be to drop them in seawater to develop a nice coat of rust and then slather the rest of the moving parts in grease and let wood chips stick to everything:)
RK...appreciate your comments. No, there's no fancy machine tools like you noted in my friends shop. Like any other model work...you know where you're starting and where you want to get to. And then...have to figure out how to make that journey happen.

Agree with the "safety aspect". But looking at logging photos, didn't really see many tie-downs in use. With the disconects, there's no good place to store such hardware making an "empty" trip back to the forest.

The pine logs used in the photos are sitting on the trunions with adjustable wheel chocks and centered as much as possible on truck. Will add, not sure any "small" chain would stand up to 300 pound log when it let's loose. Would more than likely tear something else up. Besides, if a log decides to roll off...it's not going to be reloaded easily. Thanks for commenting. Carl B.
I did some image searching and it's rather interesting. I'd swear I'd seen these with the logs chained down. Well, most *models* have the logs chained down as I had seen at numerous model train shows, but pictures of the real thing just show the logs sitting there as a single or in pairs. If they had a stack of 3 or more, they had a chain around the logs in the middle to keep them in a bunch, but still not chained to the disconnect. I guess the idea is that the log(s) is a vast majority of the weight so it doesn't really matter if it's secured or not. If its going to go it's going to go and either take the disconnects with it or not.
As far as moving them empty, saw everything from bars connecting them to couplers to just links and pins.

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ccvstmr
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by ccvstmr » Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:42 am

rkcarguy wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:26 pm

I did some image searching and it's rather interesting. I'd swear I'd seen these with the logs chained down. Well, most *models* have the logs chained down as I had seen at numerous model train shows, but pictures of the real thing just show the logs sitting there as a single or in pairs. If they had a stack of 3 or more, they had a chain around the logs in the middle to keep them in a bunch, but still not chained to the disconnect. I guess the idea is that the log(s) is a vast majority of the weight so it doesn't really matter if it's secured or not. If its going to go it's going to go and either take the disconnects with it or not.
Hello RK...think I was watching a Youtube vid on the Yosemite Valley inclined logging operations in CA. They eventually got single-ended bulkhead flat cars to keep the logs from sliding forward on the down-hill journey. In addition, thought they said for a 3 piece log stack, they would chain the 1st two logs and the 3rd log was set on top, between the logs. This provided tension on the chains to hold that log stack together. For a Midwesterner, was interesting to watch old vids of those operations. Evidently, there were a number of inclined logging operations that ran along the Merced River.
Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!

Glenn Brooks
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by Glenn Brooks » Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:03 pm

One other option to consider for coiled springs, is to use die springs, instead of the more commonly available compression style spring. I found a principle benefit of die springs is the ready availability of the variety of diameters, spring heights, and weight bearing that are suitable for scale model building. Also die springs are specifically weighted for pounds of compression, so fairly easy to order the correct combination of height, diameter and load bearing you would need. They also can be nested to achieve greater load bearing in the confined space of a live steam truck frame.

Some vendor sites say they are also made with a more durable steel formulation to withstand many more thousands of compressions than compression springs. Their original purpose is to retract dies operating constantly in punch and die machines running on a full time manufacturing line.

I tried some out on a recent truck rebuild and so far, have been quite happy with the ones I installed.

Glenn
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rkcarguy
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Re: Logging Disconnects

Post by rkcarguy » Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:15 pm

I've been using valve springs. You are kind of stuck with having to work with what sizes are available, but they have lots of different rates in popular engine makes and you can pick them up for next to nothing or even free if you have a local engine shop that is rebuilding heads. Some types are also progressive, meaning the more you compress them the stiffer the rate is. There are double spring sets as well or you can play with one fitting inside another and even different lengths so when empty your car still rides nice and when loaded full it's resting on the heavy springs. For example, red block Volvo "small" springs fit pretty nicely inside small block Chevy springs and don't interfere with each others coils.
I have no complaints with the die springs they are available in more custom lengths and rates, except that they are expensive. You can easily be looking at $100 for 8 for one piece of rolling stock if you are looking for larger/heavier springs.

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