Southern Railways PS-4 Pacific

Where users can chronicle their builds. Start one thread and continue to add on to it.

Moderator: Harold_V

User avatar
Pipescs
Posts: 2194
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: Lester Alabama

Southern Railways PS-4 Pacific

Post by Pipescs »

Having embraced Harolds idea of only one thread for the build along I am moving the project here.

As I have chased this beast for the last three years I have finally started on the frame.

For those how may stumble on this thread I will say that for the last three years many people on this forum have had input into a beginners plans. Can't thank them enough.

This is a beginners thread on a PS-4 Pacific.

1.6 inch per foot scale to run on 7.5 gauge track.

The frame was water jet cut by Ted Love at Vegas Waterjet (702) 287-8278
Cylinder castings and Baker valve gear from Roger Goldmann at Live Steam Locomotive
http://www.livesteamlocomotives.com/id9.html
Drawings are based on a mix of frame drawings from Roger Goldmann and the Fitt book on the PS-4

I am at this point working to finish the frame sides which are clamped to the mill table. I am through milling the top and bottom and am starting to lay out and drill the holes in the frame sides.
DSC_0499.jpg
DSC_0502.jpg
I have previously finished the brake fulcrum box (Not sure of the name) that will be bolted into the frame forward of the drivers.
DSC_0507.jpg
Later this month I am meeting Dave Sclavi in Florida to pick put the castings for the front frame spreader and the mid frame crosstie. With these parts in house I should have all I need this year to pull the completed frame together.
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
User avatar
Pipescs
Posts: 2194
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: Lester Alabama

Re: Southern Railways PS-4 Pacific

Post by Pipescs »

Well I managed an hour or so in the shop tonight.

I have taken Traiinmans advice, and am trying to concentrate on just the frame this year. But I do have to finish up the pattern for the ELESCO feed water heater though.
ELESCO Feed Water Heater..jpg
It is the main barrel piece that will go with the endcaps I bought from David Bortz late last year. After I cast a few of the cylinders I will be passing the pattern to him.

DSC_0511.jpg
I am at the point of putting a coat of primer on it each day and sanding it off that night. As you can see it is a two part pattern that splits on the centerline. The hump is the manifold on the back where the steam from the cylinders enters. The corebox is finished and a couple of cores waiting for the foundry session.

On the frame I drilled and put in dowl pins to use as indicator points. Not totally happy with this.
DSC_0515.jpg
DSC_0516.jpg
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
User avatar
Harold_V
Posts: 20231
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: Southern Railways PS-4 Pacific

Post by Harold_V »

Pipescs wrote:On the frame I drilled and put in dowl pins to use as indicator points. Not totally happy with this.
Can you elaborate?

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
User avatar
Pipescs
Posts: 2194
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: Lester Alabama

Re: Southern Railways PS-4 Pacific

Post by Pipescs »

I may be expeciting too much from old equipment.

I used my DRO to find center of the center driver box cut out using it for the X reference, I used the top of the frame for the Y.

I setting up the position of the two dowels I moved to X 10.400 and Y of .537.

I then used a Center Drill to start the hole, steped up to .006 undersized and reamed out with a .250 Reamer using the mill on slow speed.

Without moving the table I took a .0005 dial indicator and checked each one as I did it.

On the leading hole I ended being .001 off in both X and Y

second hole ended up with X .000 and Y being .005 off.
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
User avatar
Harold_V
Posts: 20231
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: Southern Railways PS-4 Pacific

Post by Harold_V »

It would be difficult to know why you didn't achieve the desired results, but I expect it's to do with technique. A thou is not all that unusual, but five thou is a lot of error. Something must be amiss.

If location is critical, a boring operation should be included, even if you ream for final size. boring will guarantee the proper location, assuming you have done your work well and located the spindle in the right place.

A center drill (or spotting drill) will help locate a hole properly, but you're still at the mercy of the drill--and they often don't cut on size, or location. It's their nature. You can limit the problems by using split point drills, and keeping them as short as possible, but nothing will replace a boring operation.

If your machine is loose, the slides may be moving on you, although I would expect the DRO would show the changes. Also, it's not uncommon for dimensions to change when you lock the slides. BP mills are famous (infamous?) for doing that.

The five thou you mentioned is quite troubling to me.

Harold

Edit:

In re-reading, I couldn't help but notice you mentioned a .537" dimension. Seems a bit odd, as 17/32" would be .531". Can that be a part of the error you mentioned? (Probably not, but I had to ask.)
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
kvom
Posts: 1163
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 11:38 am
Location: Cumming, GA

Re: Southern Railways PS-4 Pacific

Post by kvom »

Top of frame for Y? Are you sure top is straight and/or frame was precisely horizontal on the table?
User avatar
Pipescs
Posts: 2194
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: Lester Alabama

Re: Southern Railways PS-4 Pacific

Post by Pipescs »

I believe, as the DRO showed no movement, my drill wandered. on starting. If I understand it, I may have caused it by going in too fast on the first part of the cut.

It turns out it is not a critical slip up though. The positioning pins will only be used in the X axis (along the table) when I reposition the ram to do the cross thru holes for the front and rear of the frame. None of these holes are that critical as long as they are done in groupings for the part that will mount to them. I can pick up Y axis off the straight edge I am using for the Y axis stop and adjust for the error on the X as long as I know how much it is.

The Three Driver Box openings can be done from one set up as the X travel will cover it.
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
Patio
Posts: 1369
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:14 pm
Location: Centralia Wa

Re: Southern Railways PS-4 Pacific

Post by Patio »

Are the size of the pins critical?
If you can go over size for the two holes, they could still be bored and end up on location, I would think.
Just a thought, after reading Harold's post.
Live for the moment!
Prepare for tomorrow!
Forgive the past!
User avatar
Pipescs
Posts: 2194
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: Lester Alabama

Re: Southern Railways PS-4 Pacific

Post by Pipescs »

The pins are not permenant.

They are strictly for reindicating the milling head when I move down the frame to drill holes. The holes will be filled in later with pins and painted over
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
User avatar
Pipescs
Posts: 2194
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: Lester Alabama

Re: Southern Railways PS-4 Pacific

Post by Pipescs »

In the process of drilling all the holes in the frame sides I realized I have not drawn in these. (what are they called by the way)
DSC_0520.jpg
I did a scale down on the frame drawings but purchased thes from Super Scale.

I will have to look at my drawings and may have to make a change to get them to line up with the pins.

They came without drawings and I did not think about it at the time so I will be faxing a request to Barry tomorrow from work on this and to order an injector from him.
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
Rob Gardner
Posts: 463
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:27 am
Location: Newbury, OH

Re: Southern Railways PS-4 Pacific

Post by Rob Gardner »

Charlie, I believe that casting is called the "Brake Hanger Fulcrum" casting.

Rob Gardner
User avatar
Pipescs
Posts: 2194
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: Lester Alabama

Re: Southern Railways PS-4 Pacific

Post by Pipescs »

I have overcome my original panic on the Indicator Pin error I had.

Once I overcame the shock of my sloppy work I stumbled on my solution.

The pins were spaced to the left and right of the centerline that I set the DRO to. They were suppose to be X Axis 10.400 and Y Axis of 5.375

I realized I missed this because I set up a dial indicator and checked each location prior to moving the table. The DRO showed no table movement. I am sure now that The drill wandered on me even though I used a started drill.

I realized the next day it did not really matter that iI had error. What mattered was the fact that I knew I had error.

just prior to swinging the ram around to drill the holes for the front of the frame, I took the time to re indicate the pin. I moved the table until I had a good steady 0 indication on my dial indicator when circling the pin. Then I took the numbers off the DRO and wrote them down.

After swinging the head to the right and locking it back down, it was a simple matter to find zero on the pin again and then punch the numbers I had wrote down in as the new X and Y for the pin location.

When I ran the table back to the closest hole I had drilled prior to the swing it dropped right in place.

I will need to do the same when I set it up for the back of the frame.

Hope this makes since to the new guys that might read this.

You old machinist can laugh at us newbees. We understand
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
Post Reply