I Don't Know Why I Ever Got Involved...

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Carrdo
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I Don't Know Why I Ever Got Involved...

Post by Carrdo »

"I don't know why I ever got involved in this project".

That was the first thing I heard about 50 years ago when I first visited the workshop of Harry Allin, the noted Canadian live steam locomotive builder.

He, of course, was working on the locomotive which I now have. It is another LBSC/A.Josslin collaboration mixing Great Western Railway design with North American design practice namely the 1/2" scale or 2.5" gauge 4-8-4 Uranus. As designed, it is a three cylinder locomotive model and Harry did not like three cylinder locomotives. Apparently, he was in the middle of setting up the valve gear timing when I arrived. Quite frankly, I do not know how to time a three cylinder locomotive. Reportedly, it is quite difficult. All of Harry's locomotives ran like Swiss watches and all were perfectly timed. Harry must have removed the third cylinder or it was never fully constructed this way as this Uranus has two conventional outside cylinders.

The original design and the history of the locomotive which I have goes back to the early 1930's. The original construction series was in English Mechanics starting in December, 1931. My notes say that near the end of his life Alex Josslin gave the part finished model to Harry to finish but that a number of different people had worked on this model previously (as Alex never had his own workshop - he commissioned others to build the locomotives he had drawn up to LBSC's specifications including LBSC himself).

To be continued.
Attachments
1 My LBSC Josslin 2.5 Inch Gauge Uranus.jpg
10 Beautifully Constructed UK Uranus.jpeg
11 Beautifully Constructed UK Uranus.jpeg
Last edited by Carrdo on Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NP317
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Re: I Don't Know Why I Ever Got Involved...

Post by NP317 »

Beautiful!
RussN
Carrdo
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Re: I Don't Know Why I Ever Got Involved...

Post by Carrdo »

Technically, the Uranus is one of the most complicated and advanced locomotive designs I have ever seen.

Remember, this is 1931.

The locomotive model has piston valves, it is superheated, the all copper boiler has a combustion chamber and there are 6 internal circulators (I believe they are called Galloway tubes) running vertically through the combustion chamber to improve water circulation and heat transfer.

Today, one can still obtain all of the model drawings and construction articles for this locomotive through the National 2-1/2" Gauge Association in the UK. The Josslin drawings, as usual, are extremely detailed, well thought out and practical 95% of the time. However, the remaining 5% are what I call pretty pictures and this is what I am dealing with. The main problem; everything being so miniature, compact, complicated and detailed, I don't know how things could have been put together the way they are and to get at things is sometimes next to impossible. Also, since the locomotive was untouched for decades, the often encountered problem of all the miniature fasteners seizing is there. One has to proceed very cautiously and pre soak everything for weeks in a liquid wrench solution or something similar before trying to remove them. Once removed, my plea is use an anti seize compound on any locomotive fastener(s) you employ.

Despite any of the above, I couldn't begin to create such a unique example of outstanding miniature engineering.

To be continued.
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LVRR2095
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Re: I Don't Know Why I Ever Got Involved...

Post by LVRR2095 »

I think it is a shame that 2 - 1/2” has become obsolete. I think it is an ideal size. You can have a model of the large locomotive that can still be easily moved, transported in even a small automobile and displayed in your living room when not in use. And....it will still haul a coupe of good sized adult passenger!
I would like to see more clubs add a rail to accommodate 2 - 1/2” gauge and hopefully get more of these beautiful models back in steam.

Keith
Carrdo
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Re: I Don't Know Why I Ever Got Involved...

Post by Carrdo »

I forgot to mention that while the two outside cylinders are piston valves, the third inside cylinder is a slide vale and a complicated one at that.

Also, the UK Uranus shown is currently on offer on Ebay and on a couple of the Facebook live steam sites.
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Bill Shields
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Re: I Don't Know Why I Ever Got Involved...

Post by Bill Shields »

We have a recently rebuilt 2.5" gauge track at PLS and i am actively running (and assisting others with the running of) a loco on it.

More fun than a barrel of monkeys.

You need to really know how to fire and manage a steamer to get around the track.

And you need a completely different mindset when it comes to tools and tolerances. Tolerances that are white noise on a 7-1/4" loco become critical dimensions on the smaller scale.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
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Steamer Al
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Re: I Don't Know Why I Ever Got Involved...

Post by Steamer Al »

What a beautiful locomotive! I've always loved the British designs.
Carrdo
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Re: I Don't Know Why I Ever Got Involved...

Post by Carrdo »

Ok, here is an example of the problem with one of the "pretty pictures" detail on one of the Josslin Uranus prints - the boiler top feed detail as I have been working on that.

The first photo shows the top feed and safety valve location, spacing and fittings on the boiler print. At first glance, all looks good.

The second photo shows both safety valves and both top feed fittings installed as per the Josslin print. At first glance all looks good.

However, there is a problem since what you don't see is how all of the safety valves and top feed fittings are set into the boiler bushing - they are threaded.

The third photo shows why there is a problem. No matter what you do you can't thread the two top feed fittings into the boiler bushing without the piping threaded spigot ends fouling one another even with the two safety valves removed. So, one has to make a detached two piece top feed fitting on at least one of the top feeds (and leave it that way) to be able to install (or remove it again if ever needed) everything as per the print detail. Sounds quite doable but beware, Murphy is waiting in the wings.

This is a pretty small fitting to begin with and everything has to be centred in two directions, drilled and threaded to an exact depth and don't strip the 7/32"-40 ME thread in the fitting when tapping the thread (it is so easy to do with a shallow depth of thread and I have done it!) and on and on. Well, I did it in the end but it wasn't exactly easy but with a bit of luck this time...

Next, was to make the threaded spigot itself. It is threaded all over 1/4-40 ME on the piping end and 7/32-40 on the top feed body end. It has to be boiler pressure tight so as not to leak.

So, to thread the insert spigot piece all over from both ends one has to make a holding fixture at some point (a threaded hex nut held in the three jaw chuck) to thread the other end.

All went well with the threading until I tried to remove the completed spigot from the threaded holding fixture. Well, the threading torque "welded" the two pieces together (threads always do that when you don't want them to and vice versa) and with nothing to hang on to to torque them apart again without damaging the threads.

OK, then machine some tiny 180 degree flats on the spigot and make up a special close fitting wrench which I did - photos 4 and 5. It looks easy when finished but it was a holding nightmare because of the small size and length of the parts, I couldn't use any of my indexing equipment and extend the end mill far enough without the quill of the mill fouling something, the problems just went on and on.

And don't over tighten anything with these fine ME threads. Everything has to fit and seal perfectly with just a snug (slightly past hand tight) fit.
Attachments
26 The Twin Boiler Top Feeds and Safety Valves Detail.jpg
27 Everything Installed as Per the Josslin Print.jpg
28 One Boiler Top Feed with Detached Threaded Spigot.jpg
29 The Special Wrench Needed.jpg
30 The Milled Flats on the Detached Spigot.jpg
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baggo
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Re: I Don't Know Why I Ever Got Involved...

Post by baggo »

Good to see someone working on a 2.5" loco over there, especially Uranus! I shall follow this with interest.I always fancied building one but built a Helen Long instead. Also good to know that the 2.5" track at PLS is being used.

The only Uranus that I have seen in the flesh and running is one that was owned by John Cook who was a longtime member of the N25GA until his passing. One of the other members now has the loco and runs it occasionally.

I can well relate to the title of this post. I've often had the same feeling!

Uranus1 Small.jpg
Attachments
Uranus8 Small.jpg
Secretary of The National 2½" Gauge Association
Member of North West Liecestershire SME

http://www.modeng.johnbaguley.info
Carrdo
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Re: I Don't Know Why I Ever Got Involved...

Post by Carrdo »

More fun working on the Uranus. I probably have about five different things on the go with this locomotive at the moment but I will first relate to the most difficult and time consuming issue I have so far encountered - an absolute horror.

About six weeks ago I discovered to my absolute horror that one of the fasteners holding the left hand valve cover on to the cylinder casting had been sheared off cleanly just inside the cylinder body casting. This had happened long before I acquired the locomotive.

The Uranus cylinder itself is cast brass but this locomotive has pressed in bronze valve and cylinder liners perfectly done so somebody put an awful lot of effort into this aspect.

Now, this just isn't any fastener. Since this locomotive has been worked on by a number of people starting way back in the 1930's, it turned out to be (after lots of investigation) a 3/32"- 48 tpi Whitworth miniature steel slotted flat head screw. And, after being this way for decades, it had plenty of time to weld itself in - and it was. To give an idea as to how small this is, a 3-48 NC thread uses a #47 tap drill while this Whitworth thread uses a #48 tap drill so it is about the same size as the 3-48 NC (which also today is considered an obsolete North American thread).

I have invested thousands of dollars (and time) over my lifetime collecting every possible threading system tap and die because, with these old locomotive models one can find anything in the way of fasteners - and I mean anything! I do have Whitworth taps and dies but the smallest I have turned out to be 1/8" and this was one size below that (but it is not at all the smallest Whitworth thread listed). So hunt all over the world through the internet to find an obsolete HSS 3/32-48 Whitworth tap and die set (I do not use high carbon steel taps and dies as are commonly listed in the UK as I consider them garbage - my rant). So pay your money and wait as the set I finally found is coming from Australia.

And don't look for any commercial screw extractor - they are not made that small.

Now the tap and die set is going to do nothing to extract the sheared off fastener. So what to do???

The first thing was to set the front of the engine up on a stout wooden block so I could see what was going on and put some light on the subject. The photo is much too dark but it is the bottom screw cover thread which is sheared off. One could try and remove the cylinder but this is fraught with danger as how many other fasteners would be sheared off in the process and it also requires totally dismantling the boiler and chassis, disturbing the valve setting and timing which alreddy has been done - not an option.

Notice also the very restricted space available to work in and around unless everything around the cylinder casting is dismantled which rules out trying and drill out the screw - not an option.

Is it only me who seems to get into these self inflicted snafoo's??!!

to be continued.
Attachments
40 The Horror with One Left Side Cylinder Valve Screw Cover Thread Broken Off Inside the Machined Cylinder Casting.jpg
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Bill Shields
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Re: I Don't Know Why I Ever Got Involved...

Post by Bill Shields »

Take the cylinder off and find someone that has an EDM drill.

Will go through it like butter.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
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Dick_Morris
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Re: I Don't Know Why I Ever Got Involved...

Post by Dick_Morris »

I don't think this will help you because of your clearance problems, but just yesterday I removed a #2 HSS tap that I broke off. I mounted the part rigidly and drilled it out with a new 1/16" center cutting carbide end mill.

I've never tried it, but it's claimed that a broken tap or drill stuck in non-ferrous material can be removed with alum. It should also work with a steel screw. I think I first saw it suggested in a Cole's catalog 40+ years ago. This is the first hit that comes up when searching for broken tap and alum in Google. https://www.musicmedic.com/removing-stu ... 7gsa52s1eo

As to your question whether others experience "awe s***" moments. Yesterday was a challenging one for accurately drilling a couple of sets of four #47 holes in a couple of pieces of aluminum plate. Using the DRO on the mill, they went exactly where I told them to go. However, I had to make two sets of holes in one plate and three in the other. At least it was just for a temporary holding jig and I can claim the extra holes were intentional and are there to lightening the piece. :wink:
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