Economy Box 'n Reef

Where users can chronicle their builds. Start one thread and continue to add on to it.

Moderator: Harold_V

ccvstmr
Posts: 2230
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:37 am
Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Economy Box 'n Reef

Post by ccvstmr »

Hello Russ....
Thanks for following along. Nice to know there's SOMETHING in all the dribble that can be of value to someone, somewhere. Keep checking back, the best is yet to come! Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
ccvstmr
Posts: 2230
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:37 am
Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Economy Box 'n Reef

Post by ccvstmr »

FIDDLIN' ON THE ROOF - PART 3

Since the ribs are more decorative in nature, decided a mechanical fastening was not necessary. Add to that, drilling/tapping or even drilling/nutting screws was going to test my patience. Decided this would be the perfect time to turn to the spot welder to attach the roof ribs.

Was in contact with the guy that provided the sheet metal roof panels many years ago. Explained what I was doing. Was cautioned...the roof panels need to cleaned BEFORE any spot welding could be performed. WHY? The sheet metal had a zinc spray coating on both sides. This served (2) purposes: 1) the zine coating was a rust inhibitor and 2) the zinc acts as a "slip agent" during metal forming. Heating the metal would vaporize the zinc. NOT GOOD. This was an extra step I hadn't expected. Time to take one step back to move 2 (or more ) steps forward.

Already had center lines drawn on the roof for all the ribs. Made a quick roof rib template and traced that so I knew approximately how much area the zinc coating would be removed. Once again, holes in the template would be aligned with the center lines drawn on the roof to trace the outline of the rib.

IMG_4265.JPG

My first thought, mask the rib area with some 1/8" flat bars held in place with clamps and use a wire brush in a drill to scratch the coating off. Didn't take long to realize, this wasn't going to work. Would take too long... to brush all the rib locations...on both top AND bottom roof sides.

IMG_4267.JPG

Next idea, took the roof panel over to my traveling train partner's shop. Made a card board end for his sand blast cabinet with a slot to pass the roof panel thru. Was able to blast half the roof, remove and flip around to do the other half. Then, remove the roof, turn over and repeat the blasting for the roof underside. When completed, the roof panel looked like a zebra.

IMG_4270.JPG

Going to shift gears here for a moment and talk about the spot welder. Next photo shows the Miller spot welder I latched on to several years prior. Similar models are available from Harbor Freight. Your choice whether to get a 120 volt or 240 volt version. The model I had was the 120 volt unit. This particular welder needs a 30 amp service. 20 amps will barely suffice...and you'll end up resetting the circuit breaker often.

The breaker panel in the basement still had a few openings for a single pole breaker. Came out of the panel and mounted a 30 amp twist lock receptacle on the wall. Would be difficult to confuse what kind of plug could be inserted. Not only did my sand blast cabinet friend provide the twist lock connector for the corded end of the spot welder (he's a contract electrician), he also provided a good length of 10 gauge, 3 conductor SO cord and appropriate cord ends.

And if that wasn't enough, borrowed his 18" square hydraulic lift stand. The spot welder tips the scale at 22 pounds. There was NO WAY I was going to hold the welder for all the welds that were about to be buzzed. The lift table was on wheels for moving and swiveling and provided great maneuverability. This table was a blessing for this part of the construction.

IMG_4271.JPG

Well, the spot welder had one problem...the original welding tongs were "worn" and had...let's say flat spots on the tips. Good for some welding (had used this before for making small battery boxes). Now, needed something with more "pin-point" accuracy to create a small weld and get in close to the rib profile.

Got on-line and let my fingers do the shopping on Ebay. Found someone selling a pair of tongs and extra tips for something like $90 with s&h included. Okay, time to bite the bullet and make this kind of investment to proceed. Next photo shows both new and old tongs.

Replacing the tongs didn't take long. An allen wrench is all that's needed to loosen the tong holding pressure plates. Remove the old tongs. Insert the new tongs. Align the welding tips and tighten the socket cap screws. Then, there's another adjustment to control how tightly the tongs can be opened and closed...and thereby controlling downward pressure of the tongs when closed.

IMG_4273.JPG

With the spot welder ready to get a good buzz work out, was time to prepare the roof (again). This included marking the rib center lines, using the rib template to trace the profile...or at least, trace the rib ends along the roof edge and the position of the ribs located along the roof ridge.

IMG_4276.JPG

Next time, we'll get into the final spot welding preparations and "glue" some ribs to the roof. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
ccvstmr
Posts: 2230
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:37 am
Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Economy Box 'n Reef

Post by ccvstmr »

FIDDLIN' ON THE ROOF - PART 4

No doubt, things are about to heat up!

Decided to mark all the templates to know where the spot welding would be performed. Else, the welding would look somewhat helter-skelter. Made a "story board" and used that as a guide to mark the weld locations for each of the ribs. Would end up having an (11) spot weld pattern... including (2) welds along the roof edge.

IMG_4287.JPG

Spot welding set up began by clamping the end of the rib to the roof edge. Wanted this as tight as possible to minimize any gaps.

IMG_4280.JPG

With the vise grip clamps in place, started on to of the roof near the edge...and worked my way towards the roof ridge.

IMG_4278.JPG

Once the tongs are closed where the spot weld is going to be placed, there's a phenolic "toggle lever" under the handle. Simply push the toggle to one side or the other to energize while holding the tongs against the work to be welded.

The first spot...kept the power on too long and this blew out the metal. Lesson learned...start with shorter time periods. Basically watched the "heat circle" form on the metal. Don't think the power was on more than 1 second. No need to count...1-2-3...that was already too long.

Would come back later with a Dremel tool and grinding disk to remove the welding nubs and goobers.

IMG_4279.JPG

With the welder on the hydraulic table on wheels, kinda just "walked" my way from the roof edge to the ridge, bumping the power switch and welding the roof ribs in place. Would remove the vise grip clamps along the way until near the roof ridge. Soon enough, half the roof was done. Flipped the roof around and repeated the clamping and welding process for the other side.

Did the best I could in advance to clean up the saw dust under and around the saw table. Still, borrowed a fireproof welding blanket from my friend to cover the work area. When the power is activated for the weld, sparks sometimes shoot out from between the rib and roof. We're not talking a spark shower here, but a bit of precaution was the better course of action.

IMG_4283.JPG

When the top side ribs had all been spot welded, had to go back and tack the ends of the ribs along roof edge face. Time for a set up change. Set the roof panel on a couple of buckets on the floor (else I would have been working high up) and still used some blocks of wood to get the roof a little higher. Once at a good working height, dropped the hydraulic table and rolled along the edge of the roof to zap the last (2) welds on each rib end.

With the roof tipped up on edge as in the next photo, it's easy to see the underside spot weld pattern. Using the story board mentioned above, provided a consistent spot weld pattern. Is that important? Probably not as the welds would all get painted over.

IMG_4284.JPG

Now, if there was one draw back to this entire episode...sand blasting the zinc coating exposed the raw steel sheet metal. The roof would eventually be sand blasted (again)...the rib locations in particular...prior to painting. Time will tell how long it takes for any rust to show up. BUT...there was nothing (reasonably) that could be done about the exposed steel surface UNDER each rib. Oh well...everything has trade-offs. Figured if did eventually show up...the roof would look like the real cars...with rust streaks and where nobody really cared what the top side of the roof looked like.

There's one more part to cover regarding the roof...and will address that in the next post. Thanks for sticking around. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
ccvstmr
Posts: 2230
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:37 am
Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Economy Box 'n Reef

Post by ccvstmr »

FIDDLIN' ON THE ROOF - Part 5

Okay, think it's time to finish up the roof. In the last post, had completed spot welding the ribs to the car roof panel. For the rivet counters out there...there were NO rivets used on the roof. BUT...11 ribs...= 22 half rib sections...times 11 spot welds per half rib...comes to 242 welds. Sure glad I didn't rivet or drill 'n screw the ribs in place! And that was just the box car roof (your number of spot welds per roof may vary). The reefer roof will be a few less than that.

So, how did all this turn out? Was the work worth the end result? Here's how the roof looked setting on the car body with the roof walk pieces in place...yep, I'd say it was well worth the effort...and that's before any paint was applied!

IMG_4285.JPG
IMG_4286.JPG

At this point, had cleaned all the rough spot welds as well as possible with a Dremel too. The roof panel made it's way back to the sand blast cabinet for one last cleaning and surface preparation before adding some color.

The Rutland box car would have a yellow painted roof and roof walks. Used Rustoleum rattle can gloss Marigold for this. This yellow has a hint of orange tint in it. Knew in advance, yellow's (along with other "light" colors) are some of the worst colors to paint. Takes forever to get a good, even coat of paint on pretty much any surface. Add to that, the paint mist drifts all over the place. Had the basement shop window fan running while all the painting was in progress.

IMG_4367.JPG

The 4-40 button head screws used to hold the roof walk pieces in place...were pushed into some drilled holes on a piece of cardboard. The screw heads got a quick sand blasting (else the cardboard disintegrates). Back home, those were painted gloss Marigold too. And when the entire assembly was completed, one last over spray of paint to cover any scratches or where the allen wrench chipped the screw hex sockets.

IMG_4374.JPG

Now before the top side of the roof was painted, the roof was placed upside down to paint the underside. Used a light gray for this. Something close to the interior color of the plywood box itself. When the top side painting was completed, turned the roof upside down one last time. Had cut strips of 1/8" thick yellow foam from Hobby Lobby and contact cemented those around the perimeter of the roof on the inside. Think of this more or less as a weatherstrip. The foam extended about 1/8" below the metal roof edge. Once a year, the equipment is run thru the "wash track" (a track alongside the club steaming bays with a water hose and compressed air services). This usually happens 1 or 2 weeks before a club annual meet. Here's the foam strip installation.

IMG_4436.JPG

Readers might note there's a couple blocks of aluminum fastened to the underside ends of the roof. These are the fasten points that hold the roof in place. Think I used 10-32 button head screws, 1 on each end, to hold the roof in position. Suspect, there will be some people that try to lift the roof to peek inside where...not on my watch. Besides, there's nothing to see inside the car body!

This concludes the box car roof assembly and decorating. Will set that aside (carefully) and move on. Next, will review the reefer roof. The reefer roof rib installation was done in the same manner as the box car. But now, had to consider the addition of (4) ice hatches that had to be prepared and mounted. Will get into that...next time. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
ccvstmr
Posts: 2230
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:37 am
Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Economy Box 'n Reef

Post by ccvstmr »

ICE 'EM DOWN - Part 1

Okay, time to shift cars here and get back to the reefer roof again. The installation of the reefer roof ribs followed the same methods as the box car roof including the surface sand blasting preparation to remove the zinc coating. The only difference between the box and reefer roofs...there are two less ribs across the reefer roof at the ends...to make room for the ice hatches.

Years ago (like back when this project was started), purchased (4) ice hatch resin castings from a guy I believe lived in the Pacific Northwest. Think his name might have been Roades...or Rhodes. Sorry, don't remember. At the time, don't believe anything else was commercial available.

Here's the (4) roof hatches. These were lightly sand blasted to removed the original "glazed" surface and help prepare the resin castings for eventual painting. On the right, is a wood form made to hold the hatches in the inverted position to drill the mounting holes.

IMG_4291.JPG

One of the items noted when preparing the ice hatches...the hatch mounting frames had warped over time. The warp was considerable. Didn't want to chance breaking the casting(s) while they were cold.

IMG_4293.JPG

Used an industrial hot air gun to carefully heat one ice hatch casting at a time. Took the surface temperature up to approx. 140 deg. F (temperature checked with a handheld IR gun) and then set some weights on the casting and let cool for about 30 minutes. This certainly helped flatten the resin castings for mounting.

IMG_4301.JPG
Made the mistake years ago of starting to insert mounting holes before I figured out there was a better way to do this (more scale looking). The original holes drilled were too large. So, put some tape on the casting face, turned the casting upside down and filled the holes with JB Weld. Made sure all the surfaces in the hole were "wetted" with the JBW. Next day, trimmed off the excess JBW bubble at each corner. THEN...I could proceed with drilling more reasonably sized holes.

Went around the underside perimeter with a Sharpie pen and then scribed the location for all the holes...for 2-56 hex head brass screws. Drilled the holes for the 2-56 tap drill size. Would use a (4) bolt pattern per side.

IMG_4292.JPG

The resin ice hatch casting was clamped in position on the roof corner...and used the 2-56 tap drill size to drill thru the steel roof. Didn't want the drill bit to wander as that would have wallowed out the resin casting holes.

Each of the (4) ice hatches were numbered and a corresponding mark put on the roof that would eventually be covered so each hatch cover would end up ended up back in the proper location.

IMG_4296.JPG

With all the holes drilled into the steel roof, went back and tapped each hole. Was then time to see how this mounting method would look...

IMG_4295.JPG

We'll continue with the ice hatch cover installation in the next post. While waiting...wanna grab a cold one, eh? Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
ccvstmr
Posts: 2230
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:37 am
Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Economy Box 'n Reef

Post by ccvstmr »

ICE 'EM DOWN - Part 2

Okay, time to push ahead with the reefer ice hatches.

In the last post, the resin reefer ice hatches were drilled for mounting holes. Used a (12) bolt pattern with spacing adjusted on the hinge side of the casting. Each ice hatch was numbered. And when set on the roof corner to transfer the hole locations...the roof was marked similarly so hatch #1 thru #4 ended up on roof corner number #1 thru #4 respectively. Saves time to mark things as I went along...instead of trying to figure out which piece went where later on. Stepping back, here's the roof with the 4 ice hatches in place.

IMG_4298.JPG

On the opposite corners of the roof, there's a corresponding grab iron for workers climbing the corner ladders. Pulled out the forming and silver soldering blocks I used to make caboose cupola corner grab irons. These provide a 3-point grab iron mount on a 3" x 3" pattern (or scale 2 feet x 2 feet). Had to make sure the mounting screw holes along the end of the roof would penetrate the roof inside the end casting. These grab irons would later be sand blasted and painted to match the roof color.

IMG_4300.JPG

Next, needed a "catch" for the hatch cover latch. Felt the resin casting was too fragile to be left unsecured. Had a hunch people (kids) would want to look underneath to see what's there. Not on my watch. Again, didn't want to be cleaning trash or ballast out of the car at any point. Didn't trust people to keepa their hands off! So, made (4) brackets to essentially lock the cover latch in the down position. Made a quick forming block from some scrap aluminum to press the 1/16" x 1/4" brass strips into shape. Wasn't concerned about forming block wear as I only needed (4) pieces.

IMG_4304.JPG

Here's a test fit for the latch catch.

IMG_4305.JPG

Next question...how would I secure this? Decided to spin some black plastic rod in the lathe and make spacers to go between the roof and the ice hatch cover. The 2-56 screws that would be used to secure the catch bracket, penetrate the cast resin cover and the plastic spacer and be anchored in the roof. Simply drilled a clearance hole and nutted the screw under the roof. With the plastic spacer, didn't have to worry about downward screw pressure affecting the cover.

Should add here...by this time, had decided the reefer would be decorated in Northern Pacific colors and graphics. As such, the roof top and car ends were sprayed with Rustoleum flat red primer. A couple days later, would go back and clear coat the red primer with Minwax clear satin polyurethane. These Minwax rattle cans have a nice nozzle that delivers a fine mist of the clear coating.

When the clear coat is dry, the satin coating darkens the red primer enough that it looks like a Tuscan red/brown (at least to me). Have used this method of finishing the Rutland cab roof and other parts of the loco. Used the same color application on the tender deck as well. The results from the loco helped me finish a Wabash stock car for a friend with the same reddish finish.

IMG_4346.JPG

And when the ice hatch covers were "buttoned up" (or down), here's what the end result looked like.

IMG_4347.JPG

In the next post, will finish up the reefer roof. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
ccvstmr
Posts: 2230
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:37 am
Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Economy Box 'n Reef

Post by ccvstmr »

ICE 'EM DOWN - Part 3

Time to finish up with the reefer roof and ice hatch coves.

With all the ice hatch covers in place, went back and made sure all the screw heads were painted (primed).

IMG_4376.JPG

After the primer was dry, pulled out the Minwax clear satin spray to clear coat the roof (and yes, the basement shop fan WAS running during these finishing steps). Had to finish the roof prior to the roof walk installation to ensure the roof area under the roof walks was adequately primed/painted and clear coated.

IMG_4385.JPG

Next, the woof walk was installed. Once again had previously taken the 4-40 button head screws, placed them in a piece of cardboard and sand blasted the buttons. Then, spray those with red primer so a nearly finished fastener was ready for installation. After the screw installation, might have gone back to touch up the screw heads with red primer...and follow that with another satin clear coat.

IMG_4387.JPG

Reached that point again where it was time to step back and take in the entire roof panel.

IMG_4389.JPG

Was the roof done? Not really. The roof underside was painted early on with some gloss brown just to cover the exposed steel. Then, similar to the box car, installed strips of 1/8" thick foam that protruded beyond the roof edge about 1/8"...this was a kind of a weather strip. Used some brown foam that I found at Hobby Lobby for that.

When I get back to this thread, it'll be time to start splashing some color around. Will show how the car bodies were prepared for priming and painting. So stick around...the end creeping up here. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
User avatar
NP317
Posts: 4557
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: Northern Oregon, USA

Re: Economy Box 'n Reef

Post by NP317 »

I really like the way the paint colors came out on the roof.
Purdy!
RussN
User avatar
makinsmoke
Posts: 2260
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:56 pm
Location: Texas Hill Country

Re: Economy Box 'n Reef

Post by makinsmoke »

Beautiful job!

And thanks for documenting!

Those castings were made by Ken Rhodes here in Central Texas. I used the same hatches on my Santa Fe reefer, with changes made to accommodate the Santa Fe practice, like turning them to open inwards, different latch mechanism, and a rack to allow the hatches to be opened partially while running, I.e., “riding the irons.”

I wish Ken still made these and other items I saw he cast. He talked of going to metal versus resin, but I don’t think he makes either now.

Take care,
Brian
ccvstmr
Posts: 2230
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:37 am
Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Economy Box 'n Reef

Post by ccvstmr »

NP317 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:05 am I really like the way the paint colors came out on the roof.
Purdy!
RussN
Hi Russ...thanks and yes, like the way the red primer and clear coat worked out. Then again, since you're from the Pacific NW...I think you're only slightly biased! Nothing wrong with that. Cheerz! Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
ccvstmr
Posts: 2230
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:37 am
Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Economy Box 'n Reef

Post by ccvstmr »

makinsmoke wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:06 am Beautiful job!

And thanks for documenting!

Those castings were made by Ken Rhodes here in Central Texas. I used the same hatches on my Santa Fe reefer, with changes made to accommodate the Santa Fe practice, like turning them to open inwards, different latch mechanism, and a rack to allow the hatches to be opened partially while running, I.e., “riding the irons.”

I wish Ken still made these and other items I saw he cast. He talked of going to metal versus resin, but I don’t think he makes either now.

Take care,
Brian
Hello Brian...good to hear from you. Thanx for the compliment and you're welcome. Documenting the build helps me to relive the successes (and nightmares) that come with working in the various mediums to produce a piece of equipment that can roll down the track.

Ken Rhodes...that's the guy. My bad, thought he was from the NW. What a shame he stopped making parts. Would be nice if people such as Ken could pass along their molds and info.

btw...believe Precision Steel Car sells a metal version of the ice hatch covers for their cars. Haven't seen PSC in a while or seen one of their reefer cars. Perhaps someone can post a finished PSC reefer here in Chaski-land.

Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
User avatar
Steggy
Posts: 1976
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:19 pm
Location: JB Pritzker’s Hellhole
Contact:

Re: Economy Box 'n Reef

Post by Steggy »

ccvstmr wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:43 pmAnd when the ice hatch covers were "buttoned up" (or down), here's what the end result looked like.
That paint looks "factory." Wish I could paint like that using nothing more that a spray can. :cry:
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Music isn’t at all difficult.  All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!  :D
Post Reply