Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

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Glenn Brooks
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Well, moving into Phase II - modifying the frame and body to be stronger and more prototype looking. This entails making the cab 10” wider and 18” longer so it’s more easy to get into, and operate. Also, add 5” of running boards outside the hood ends, to actually represent the outline of a true GE 44 toner. I also plan to add front and rear foot plates on the ends, miniature hand rails, and some nice accoutrements, such as a sound card, windows,running lights, an actual air horn, and proper instrumentation.

But first, into grinding off all the rust and a hundred or so rivets, to weld new structure under the sheet metal body.

Pictures tomorrow.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Here’s the “before” shot. Decided to take a selfie to give some idea of scale of the Loco. I figure it’s sort of 1/4 scale- 3” to the foot. Although it’s a bit tall in the cab and short in body length. So sort of short and a bit tall- basically ugly.

I’ll add 2’ overall to the length, extend the Hood ends a bit (8” eac), lower and widen the cab. Should then be a lot more proportional.
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But, onto the restoration work, an afternoon labor of rust busting and aluminum dust eating delight.

Firstly ground all the heads of the rivets holding the sheet metal body to the frame. The aluminum ones actually went very quickly.
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Finally, pulled one of the body panels to expose the cab framing and start grinding off the decades of rust the poor old goat has accumulated, whilst sitting in retirement on the siding.

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Next up, cut the frame in half and fab up the new, enlarged cab.
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

One final bit of machining. the chain drive for each truck involved turning each jackshaft to proper dimension and cutting the key ways for the sprockets and parking brake housing.

I found my existing 1” roundstock was actually about .013” oversized. So first turned the stock down to .999” OD on the lathe. Then took the two jack shafts over to my little Burke #4 horizontal mill to cut the 1/4” key ways in each shaft. Each shaft accommodates three sprockets ( 2 drive spocksts, 1 friction strap parking brake drum) -so three key ways per shaft.

This was an exciting bit of matching, as I got to use the Burke #4 for the first time, to do some actual matching. I’ve had the Burke for a couple of years, but never really had a project to use it on, since restoring it to operating condition. So a big learning curve - but fascinating.

In short, I learned that to make a keyway, the useful practice was to plunge cut to depth (.125”) then hog out the material for the required length down the shaft. In practice this worked better than taking numerous shallower passes. I found the cutter tended to grab the work at the beginning of a shallow cut, and stall out the big Master bear drive motor. Also, as the cutter was a bit dull, eventually, after three or four cuts, I found I could only plunge to about .100”. So would make a roughing pass for a hundred thou and then a second finishing pass for .030”. One of my cutters is stamped March, 1942. So likely part of the original tooling that came with the machine.

Very enjoyable process, and lots of fun to watch this legendary little mill hog out the required chips.

This set of photos shows the set up and the cutter engaging the work, then the finished shaft, with sprockets slid on, then the final product- shafts, key ways, and sprockets, ready to be secured with set screws.

The Burke definitely is a fun machine to have around the shop.
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Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

A quick note on my traction motor capability. Just starting to sort out my motor, controller, wiring harness and battery bank components to work up a mounting schematic. Just checked my two DC controllers. They operate in a range of 48-72 volts, delivering up to 400 amps, each.

Holly Smokes.

With the 2 series wound DC traction motors, these components are capable of delivering: 56kW of power. That is 76 hp!

(72v x 400a = 28800 watts - times 2. Or, 57600 watts. 57.6 Kw!)

This works out to 76.438 British horsepowers.

I think I will have plenty of juice at the drawbar...
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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NP317
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Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by NP317 »

"I think I will have plenty of juice at the drawbar..."

And have plenty left over for your seat heater...

I'm thinking the thread title "...restoration" might be a bit misplaced.
RussN
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Ahaha, I hadn’t thought about a seat heater. Good idea. I’ll reserve some extra room on the breaker panel.

Regarding restoration- once you chip away all the rust, you have to replace it with something. I figure we are allowed a certain degree of artistic flexibility here... I am keeping the original trucks afterall, and some of the frame.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
rkcarguy
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Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by rkcarguy »

Glenn Brooks wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:58 pm A quick note on my traction motor capability. Just starting to sort out my motor, controller, wiring harness and battery bank components to work up a mounting schematic. Just checked my two DC controllers. They operate in a range of 48-72 volts, delivering up to 400 amps, each.

Holly Smokes.

With the 2 series wound DC traction motors, these components are capable of delivering: 56kW of power. That is 76 hp!

(72v x 400a = 28800 watts - times 2. Or, 57600 watts. 57.6 Kw!)

This works out to 76.438 British horsepowers.

I think I will have plenty of juice at the drawbar...
You may need overhead power to feed that thing lol! I think if you work out the amp/hours you're going to find you are going to suck your batteries dry quickly IF you are using all that power.
Any #'s on the torque? One thing that is really cool, is that the slow speeds we shoot for allow for exponentially increased torque. For example my 13HP Honda (~18ft/lbs torque) through an effective 6:1 hydraulic reduction and 7" diameter wheels is going to create around 180ft/lbs of torque and have a top speed of 7mph. Being electric, you could be 3-4x that or more. Our local colleges solar electric car, for example, only has a 10hp electric motor but it makes over 100ft/lb of torque and only weighs about 800#'s, so it twice the torque/weight ratio of a V8 mustang and there is no waiting for an ICE to rev up, the electric motor torque is instant.
Glenn Brooks
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Ryan, haha. originally, this loco was indeed powered with an overhead low voltage DC line. Still have the bronze power pole that was mounted on top of the cab. Can’t remember the proper term for it, but, it sits out back, waiting for a new lease on life. Mr. Griffin had an early day DC generator and earth ground in his shop in the backyard, to power the line, which ran around his back yard serving his ROW. Turns out these low voltage, earth ground, DC power systems were very popular and wide spread in the early days of electrification. You could run overhead wires in grids for miles and miles. Many mining towns and some counties electrified in this manner a long time before AC power utilities became common.

Iam building the battery boxes to hold up to 16 each 240 amp hour 12v batteries. Decided to use lead acid type (over lithium) as they add needed weight to increase tractive effort, are initially are half the cost. So initially, 48volts with 120ah capacity, each each hood end, and per the prototype, use one motor for chugging around the track and light switching, then have the ability to energize both hood ends for heavy loads - hoping to pull 20,000# at some point, if everything works out properly. Adding an extra 8 battery’s would double amp hour capability in the futures. At some point could even convert to lithium for even higher AH capacity, but at fairly significant cost.

I did all the numbers for torque and tractive effort early on and reported the, ,earlier in themthread# or maybe in the related thread on electric traction motors. CAnt remember off the top of my head the expected torque but did pencil out 218 pounds of tractive effort with weight on drivers of around 1500#. That computed out to a train resistance weight of around 12000#.

So I think with an upgraded battery capacity, and 57 KW power, 20,000 pound train is doable. Although that’s a lot of riding cArs to w scratch up and fill with people...
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
rkcarguy
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Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by rkcarguy »

Very nice! BD and I have crunched some #'s on that (torque vs pull), sounds about right. With my proposed grades being fairly steep at 2-3%, I'm cut down to around 5000#'s or so.
Here is how I calculated battery ampacity when I was working on run time #'s for my boats electric trolling motor (with your #'s):
240 amp hours x 16 batteries = 3840 amps at 12 volts. Divide that by 4 because you'll be running 48 volts. 960 amps. Then cut that in half because the amp hour rating on batteries is measured taking them down to 0%, which you do not want to take down more than 50% or they will be very short lived. = 480 amps. So you draw 400amps you'll have about 72 minutes of run time, double that with two motors and a full load of 800 amps and you're down to about 36 minutes. For typical use on the flat you can probably double those #'s, as once up to speed there will be less amps pulled. With the the trolling motor, all it took was to have 3 fishing buddies with me and a decent headwind, and that was full amp draw which drained the batteries pretty quick (a boat is always going uphill).

Btw, I found another company that sells sound modules for $40, posted the link in your other thread. They are bigger, meant to be used for garden RR's or inside a "building" or something on an HO scale layout. One noise per module, so you'd have to buy 3 to have horn, bell, and diesel noise for example. Momentary push-button will play a "clip" of sound, or providing a continuous "trigger" will loop it so the noise is continuous.
Glenn Brooks
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
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Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Bit the bullet yesterday, and back shopped the loco for frame work. First lifted the body off the truck, (dropped the one truck early on to fab up the new traction motor support), then went after the frame and floor with Plasma surgery and post op with the grinder, as it were.

Doesn’t look much like a restoration job with all the bits laying around, and two hood ends propped up on the floor. However, thanks to the magic of electricity, I plan to add 3’ to the center of the frame tomorrow, then build up the superstructure for the “restored” (and widened) cab, and add new bits of sheet metal to fill in all the holes.
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Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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NP317
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Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by NP317 »

You are a brave man, Mr. Brooks!
RussN
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Harold_V
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Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Harold_V »

Glenn Brooks wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:47 am I found my existing 1” roundstock was actually about .013” oversized.
That's likely due to the material being hot rolled. If you need on-size, cold rolled generally runs a touch under, ready for use, assuming it's straight enough for the application. You can also source polished material that is made for the type of work you're doing. Saves a lot of time if you have enough call for the material.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
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