Couple of Shorties

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makinsmoke
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by makinsmoke »

Unless you had an entire train of stock cars, they were usually pulled up front to reduce injury due to slack action.

Empty cars, no problem.

Take care,
Brian
ccvstmr
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by ccvstmr »

NP317 wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:33 am Gorgeous! Thanks for those inspiring pics.

Next question:
Do you have drawings to share of the Walschaerts valve gear conversion for your Ten Wheeler?
I think I asked you that many moons ago at Train Mountain, but we never pursued it.
It's time to rebuild the Stephenson valve gear on my TW, and I'm considering alternatives.

Thanks. RussN
Russ, thanks again for your kind words.

Walschaerts valve gear drawings...sorry, these were not included with the Rutland when purchased in '99/'00. However, will share the following with you. Perhaps this is your stumbling block...getting the slide valve rod "line" to the outside for the rest of the valve gear. The late Pete Bialecki (builder), made a rocking "yoke" to account for the lateral center line changes.

IMG_7381.JPG

Over the years, I've had to drill more holes in the yoke to pick up a pivot point for the lubricator. Want the least amount of motion on the yoke to produce the least amount of motion on the lubricator crank. With the current arrangement, still getting more lube oil out the stack than desired. The next step would be to extend the lubricator crank to see if I can further reduce the oil pump action.

While not part of the shorties, hope this helps. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
ccvstmr
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by ccvstmr »

makinsmoke wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:21 pm Unless you had an entire train of stock cars, they were usually pulled up front to reduce injury due to slack action.

Empty cars, no problem.

Take care, Brian
Hello Brian...well-

The slack runs in,
the slack runs out,
clap, clap, clap...
deep in the heart of Texas!

Sorry, couldn't resist. Slack action even in 1.5" scale can be vicious. Was conductor for Quentin Breen at TM almost 20 years ago when QB was pulling a 46 car train around the RR. Almost needed a neck brace! Was still a hoot. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
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NP317
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by NP317 »

Carl:
Thanks for the photos of the modification to your TW making Wally gear possible.

I also have purchased the Allen castings and drawings for the Baker valve gear as applied to their Consolidation.
And Chris Brew's TW with this Baker gear modification is within visiting distance from my home.
So I will look further into that mod. I like the geometry of Baker gear with rotational only motions. No sliding stuff.
We'll see what I choose to do.

Please keep sharing your excellent work with us.
Thanks again,
RussN
ccvstmr
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by ccvstmr »

WHOOPS

Well guys...noticed a problem with the shorties a couple months ago...really nothing more than a cosmetic matter. The problem? The 1/16" scribed basswood panels in the lower sections of the end doors and baggage compartment doors were buckling. Not cool! Thought I'd share what happened and the fix(es) used to correct the matter. Will provide a review of the process so nobody else has to go thru this kind of repair in the future. To start with...here's the baggage compartment door...notice the gaps at the bottom of the scribed wood...

IMG_5087.JPG

From the above photo, the expansion was across the wood grain (width)...not along the wood grain (length). Was explained to me by a fellow Chaski contributor that basswood is one of the worst materials as far as expansion and contraction goes. Would imagine balsa wood would be worse because that wood is lighter and very porous. Was suggested to use cherry wood for the lower door panels. So, got on-line and let my fingers do some shopping before purchasing some 1/4" thick cherry wood.

1st step was to remove the old scribed basswood panels. As the wood panels were lifted, used an X-acto blade to slice the elastic strands of contact cement trying to hold on for dear life. Don't know why, but I removed the contact cement residue on the basswood.

On the back of the baggage compartment doors, used a square end X-acto blade to remove the contact cement residue and remove the paint from the recesses that contained the old scribed wood panels.

Tried spraying the scribed wood panels with water and clamping between two boards in an attempt to straighten/flatten the basswood. When dry, the panels were flat-er, but figured it was only a matter of time before the panels buckled once again. Hence, time to change material, material thickness and method of attachment to the doors.

IMG_5098.JPG

Figured scraping the old primer and paint might not be good enough to stick the new wood panels in place. Baggage compartment doors were sandblasted to take the aluminum doors down to bare metal before repairs would commence. Besides, I'm told things stick together better when there's no painted surface between parts.

Cut (2) pieces of cherry wood to cover the entire (almost) width of the baggage door and as high as possible in the vertical direction. This, to maximize the contact area between the wood panel and door...to hopefully prevent expansion from breaking the wood panel loose the next time.

Shoulders were milled around the perimeter of the panels. AND this time, those shoulders would be slightly smaller than the recess shoulder. In short...if the cherry was going to expand...didn't want the wood shoulders to bind against the aluminum door recesses and pop out once again.

IMG_5200.JPG

Next, it was time to recreate the V grooves. Once again, fired up the mill with a 60 deg bevel carbide cutter and used the DRO to insure equally spaced scribe lines. After the first couple of grooves were cut...noticed was not getting a V groove. Was committed at that point and finished cutting the grooves. Had to figure what, where and why was that type of groove produced? Wasn't going to lose any sleep over this as I figured the final paint would fill in the grooves somewhat.

IMG_5202.JPG

Pulled the 60 deg. carbide router bit out of the collet and saw a nice sharp pointed tip.

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Turned the cutter 90 deg and looked at the cutter side. NOW...I know where the flattened bottom cut groove came from. The width or thickness of the carbide was the culprit.

Lesson learned...if you're going to cut your own grooves like this...make sure the cutter has a pointed cutting surface on both planes. If you have a carbide sharpening stone...put a slight point on the fore and aft surfaces. Or simply purchase such a cutter.

IMG_5209.JPG

With the replacement panels fabricated and the aluminum baggage doors cleaned...was time to start the reassembly process. Will pick it up there next time. Hope you'll stick around.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
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Greg_Lewis
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by Greg_Lewis »

I had a similar problem on a much larger and more complex assembly for my cab roof and what I learned is that wood is going to move and it will do so regardless of efforts to constrain it. All you can do is to design the parts so there is room for said movement. I ended up using the thin plywood the aircraft modelers use rather than solid wood. It's far more stable.

I recall some kitchen cabinets with panel doors in which the panels were just a tad too loose and you could rattle them if you shut the doors hard. A few years ago I made a tall case clock with solid oak sides and I gave plenty of room inside the rabbets for the panels to expand. I fastened the panels only in the center of their width to keep them from migrating too far to one side or the other, and pre-stained the edges so there would be no bare wood showing if they shrunk.
Greg Lewis, Prop.
Eyeball Engineering — Home of the dull toolbit.
Our motto: "That looks about right."
Celebrating 35 years of turning perfectly good metal into bits of useless scrap.
ccvstmr
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Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by ccvstmr »

Greg...thanks for sharing. Safe to say, at the core of the issue when dealing with woods...as you so plainly put it...
"All you can do is to design the parts so there is room for said movement."

Will be describing the (2) different methods I used to resolve the problem with buckling 1/16" scribed basswood.
Stay tuned. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
ccvstmr
Posts: 2230
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:37 am
Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by ccvstmr »

BAGGAGE COMPARTMENT DOOR RECOVERY

The new baggage compartment wooden door panels were made with 1/4" thick cherry wood. This was considerably thicker than the 1/16" scribed basswood used in the original door wood panels and a bit more stable as far as expansion and contraction. The cherry wood panels were made wider and higher than the recess on the back side of the baggage compartment doors. This increased the surface area for the adhesive to hold the cherry wood in place. In particular at the top and bottom where the buckling was previously experienced.

This time, did not want to go back to the Weldwood contact cement previously used. When the Rutland tender was refurbished a couple years ago, was given some Griplock contact cement used for motorcycle hand grips...to use on the tender foot pegs. Found Griplock was not readily available in the local automotive parts stores. However, found something called Goop that looked promising (not to be confused with the Walthers Goo many of us know from our model train days).

Goop is a clear, gel-like contact cement. Could still be applied to the surfaces with a short, stiff, bristled artists brush. As I would find out, need to spread the Goop as quickly as possible before it dries out AND more importantly...as thin as possible.

Now that the baggage compartment doors had been sand blasted to remove all the former primer and paint, the wood panel was set in place. On the back side...used a pencil to trace the perimeter of the cherry wood panel. Didn't want to apply Goop outside the lines. On the flip side, traced the aluminum door openings on the face of the cherry wood...so Goop could be applied between the door panels.

After the Goop was applied, used backing boards on both sides of the door and ratchet clamps to hold the door and cherry wood panel. After 5 to 10 minutes, removed the clamps to check the cherry wood positioning and then re-clamped.

IMG_5210.JPG

After 24 hours, the clamps were removed. NOW I could see why using the Goop as sparingly as possible would be beneficial. Where the Goop was applied too thick, it oozed out between the door and the cherry wood panel. Here's how the back side looked.

IMG_5211.JPG

On the front side, most of the ooze was at the grooves. Perhaps, too much Goop is better than too little Goop!

IMG_5212.JPG

Used a good, sharp, X-acto blade to cut one side of the ooze. Could then grab the dried Goop with a tweezers or sharp needle-nosed pliers and pulled the rubbery bits of Goop away from the surface.

IMG_5217.JPG

Don't know why, but as the rubbery ooze bits were removed, started to make a pile. In some places, after running a blade over the ooze, could remove a string of Goop like a rubber band. Took about 2 hours of careful slicing and picking to remove the ooze.

IMG_5218.JPG

At this point, it was difficult to lift a corner of the cherry panel. Certainly wasn't going to get aggressive with a pry bar or scraper. Decided to leave well enough alone and let time run its course to see if the panels were set in place...hopefully, for life!

Next time, will start the priming and painting the 2nd time around. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
ccvstmr
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Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:37 am
Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by ccvstmr »

BAGGAGE COMPARTMENT DOOR FINISHING

With the doors "Gooped" up to hold the cherry wood grooved panel in place, it was time for the finishing touches.

Tried to handle the sand blasted doors as little as possible. Hard to avoid when cutting/peeling off the extra Goop ooze around the perimeter of the cherry wood.

IMG_5219.JPG

Started by priming both sides of the doors with Rustoleum flat black primer. Exterior surface first. Why? Wanted the exterior surface to be the last surface to be painted to hopefully eliminate any blemishes until the door was ready for re-mounting. So, prime the outside. When dry, flip and prime the inside. When dry, paint the inside. And when dry, flip and paint the outside. Done painting.

IMG_5221.JPG

The primer on the door interior was followed by a quick drying Rustolum Dark Brown paint...but not the Leather Brown used on the door exterior. Why? Walk into any store that peddles the array of Rustoleum rattle cans these days (Sept. '21)...and you'll see the paint displays are nearly EMPTY! Chalk that up to COVID or that Rusto's pigment plant had a fire or other. Choice of ready for sale rattle can paints is in a dire condition right now. Had to make sure I had enough Leather Brown to finish restoration of all the doors. And yes, there is a difference in color for the (2) brown paints.

IMG_5222.JPG

In case you're wondering, the back sides of the doors were stamped "E" or "F" to designate engineer's or fireman's side door mounting. The upper corners of the alum doors and lower corners of the wood panel interiors were stamped accordingly.

Here's the outside of the door, already primed and waiting for paint.

IMG_5229.JPG

Used the standard Rustoleum line of paints for the door exterior. One drawback (my opin) of the standard paint line compared to the Painter's Touch brand...the standard paints take 24 hours to dry. Who wants to sit around and watch paint dry? Painter's Touch brand has MUCH a shorter dry time. Above all else, the "brown" for both door and door trim had to be the same.

IMG_5236.JPG

When the paint was finally dry, attached the hand holds. Reinstalled the door window glazing as well. Used a small brush to touch up the satin black on the door handle brass hex head 2-56 screws. Door restoration completed.

Last step...slide the doors in the sides of the combine side walls and install the door retaining cleats. Total time from door removal, overhaul thru re-installation was 1 week.

IMG_5391.JPG

What was learned thru this ordeal?
- free standing 1/16" thick scribed basswood wood panels were susceptible to expansion.
- 1/4" thick cherry wood was less likely to expand/contract due to temperature or humidity changes.
- leave a small amount of extra room for wood materials to expand and not bind/buckle.
- use a fully tapered cutter (both directions) to create the wood grooves.
- allow as much extra surface area on the wood panels (if possible) for more adhesion.
- apply adhesive on bare, non-painted surfaces (doors and wood panels).
- use a "good" adhesive material to bond the wood to aluminum...use sparingly and avoid "ooze" problems.

Next time, will review a slightly different method to redo the (4) end doors for both the combine and coach. Will be back. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
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makinsmoke
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by makinsmoke »

Thanks for documenting. Sometimes redoing something takes more time that the actual first build. I hate going backwards!

Looking at how full size doors are built. I’m wondering if sandwiching the scribed section on both sides might have kept the panels from buckling. I made doors from basswood for my caboose, and although the panels aren’t scribed, they’ve never tried to buckle.

Thanks again for the photos and documentation!
Brian
ccvstmr
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Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:37 am
Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by ccvstmr »

makinsmoke wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:51 am Thanks for documenting. Sometimes redoing something takes more time that the actual first build. I hate going backwards!

Looking at how full size doors are built. I’m wondering if sandwiching the scribed section on both sides might have kept the panels from buckling. I made doors from basswood for my caboose, and although the panels aren’t scribed, they’ve never tried to buckle.

Thanks again for the photos and documentation!
Brian
Brian...you're most welcome. It's not that I dislike going backwards...just don't care to have to do some things twice! Like to hit the target bullseye on the first try if possible. Do-overs sometimes involve more damage and repair work.

Wondering if sandwiching the wood panels would eliminate buckling? Well, that's where I was going with the end doors. After my experience trying to mill the scribed grooves for the baggage compartment doors, wanted to see if I could re-use the existing end door wood panels. Stick around and you'll see how I made adjustments for the shorty passenger car end doors.

Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
ccvstmr
Posts: 2230
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:37 am
Location: New Lenox, IL

Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by ccvstmr »

WHOOPS #2

As mentioned, experienced varying degrees of buckling on the scribed basswood panels in the (4) end doors. It was time to take a few steps back to go a few more steps forward. Did NOT want to cut grooves in cherry wood like I did for the baggage compartment doors, nor did I glue something that was a 1/4" thick on the back of the aluminum machined end doors.

This time, decided to laminate layers of wood to hopefully flatten the wood panels and satisfy the criteria needed to maintain the wood panel look while improving the construction and adhesion for applying the final product. Will take you thru the process to restore the end doors.

First, will show you the extend of the buckling from both sides of the end door...

IMG_5288.JPG
IMG_5289.JPG

Most definitely, there was no room for the wood to expand. The growth of the wood was more than the contact cement could restrain. The wood panels were removed from the door and the paint and adhesive in recessed areas removed with a square ended X-acto knife blade.

IMG_5290.JPG

Since the door back recess was 1/8" deep (door thickness was 1/4")...decided to laminate another layer of 1/16" basswood to the back of the scribed wood panels. This would be the first of (2) layers to maintain flatness and eliminate future buckling.

When the glue had dried, put all (4) sides of the wood panel to a disk sander to reduce both height and width of the panel. Wanted to provide a gap all around the wood panel while sitting in the recess in case of expansion. With the added basswood layer, the back of the panels would be flush to the back of the doors. When the added layer of basswood was glued to the scribed wood...the assembly was clamped between backing boards to spread the clamping pressure across the entire panel.

IMG_5291.JPG

From the front side, the panel gaps in the recess allowed room to center the wood panels when viewed from the front side.

IMG_5292.JPG

Next time, we'll finish up the panel preparation before getting into painting and installation. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
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