It followed me home!!!

Discussion on all milling machines vertical & horizontal, including but not limited to Bridgeports, Hardinge, South Bend, Clausing, Van Norman, including imports.

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Gwarden
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:44 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

It followed me home!!!

Post by Gwarden »

Hi all

I have just acquired a Bench top Horizontal/ vertical mill of unknownmake and model.
DSC_1113.JPG
DSC_1115.JPG
I was hoping someone might recognize the make and model and can inform me???
earlgo
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Location: NE Ohio

Re: It followed me home!!!

Post by earlgo »

That looks like it will be a fun project cleaning it up and making it work.
If it were me, though, I would have run faster. :lol:
--earlgo
Before you do anything, you must do something else first. - Washington's principle.
Gwarden
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:44 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: It followed me home!!!

Post by Gwarden »

Just couldn't resist it's plaintive call. Amazingly everything seems to move freely. No tags or labels though, cannot figure out the make or model.

Dennis
kl7sg
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Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:00 pm
Location: Springtown, TX

Re: It followed me home!!!

Post by kl7sg »

Nice project.
Have a nice day,

Mike
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Harold_V
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Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: It followed me home!!!

Post by Harold_V »

earlgo wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:46 am If it were me, though, I would have run faster. :lol:
--earlgo
Indeed!
Getting this machine operational won't be all that difficult, but making it a precision machine, as it was intended to be, would be a totally different matter. The amount of damage done to exposed slide areas will make it difficult to achieve reasonable precision unless the machine undergoes a total rebuild.

It is important for folks to understand that applying paint to a machine tool does nothing towards making it a reliable machine. It may look good, but it may not be worthy of ownership. A great deal depends on the objective of the owner.

I'm wishing Dennis well with this project. Approached properly, a good outcome can be expected. If not, all bets are off. It may be capable of making chips, but it may not be capable of making (good) parts.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
John Hasler
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Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:05 pm
Location: Elmwood, Wisconsin

Re: It followed me home!!!

Post by John Hasler »

earlgo wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:46 am That looks like it will be a fun project cleaning it up and making it work.
If it were me, though, I would have run faster. :lol:
--earlgo
I certainly would not have been able to outrun it.
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Steggy
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Re: It followed me home!!!

Post by Steggy »

earlgo wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:46 amIf it were me, though, I would have run faster. :lol:
I would have been in an all-out wind sprint! :D
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Music isn’t at all difficult.  All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!  :D
Gwarden
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:44 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: It followed me home!!!

Post by Gwarden »

Harold_V wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:42 pm
earlgo wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:46 am If it were me, though, I would have run faster. :lol:
--earlgo
Indeed!
Getting this machine operational won't be all that difficult, but making it a precision machine, as it was intended to be, would be a totally different matter. The amount of damage done to exposed slide areas will make it difficult to achieve reasonable precision unless the machine undergoes a total rebuild.

It is important for folks to understand that applying paint to a machine tool does nothing towards making it a reliable machine. It may look good, but it may not be worthy of ownership. A great deal depends on the objective of the owner.

I'm wishing Dennis well with this project. Approached properly, a good outcome can be expected. If not, all bets are off. It may be capable of making chips, but it may not be capable of making (good) parts.

H
Thanks for the encouragement Harold. My intent is a total rebuild, while at the same time learning some new techniques. I first plan to methodically strip and de-rust (using electrolysis) then depending on pitting etc, replace or scrape parts as needed. I am in no hurry and not in need of the mill. Going to enjoy the journey!

I see my biggest obstacle maybe doing it without a manual etc.

Dennis
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Harold_V
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Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: It followed me home!!!

Post by Harold_V »

I acquired a #2 Cincinnati tool and cutter that was in similar condition, although without the rusting. I spent the required time and effort to get it back to being useful and have been nicely rewarded with a machine that is quite useful and very pleasing to the eye. I wish I'd have taken a couple of pictures before getting started, but, alas, I did not.

Anyway, I'm pleased that you did not take my words in a way they were not intended. I'm not down on restoring machine tools, but I am down on ignoring their mechanical condition and applying a coat of paint. Sounds like you have a very good sense of direction. You're going to enjoy the results. How could you not?

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
pete
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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:04 am

Re: It followed me home!!!

Post by pete »

I suspect that mill was at one time might have been a line drive machine. A guess only, but made somewhere between late 1930's - 1940's to possibly as late as the early 1960's, but still doubtful that late if it really was a line drive machine. It's also not one I can recall ever seeing before so it could have been built in North America or almost anywhere else. If it has metric, imperial or even Whitworth threaded hardware that might indicate a bit closer to where it might have been built. Reposting your pictures in the Antique Machinery and History specific sub forum https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/a ... d-history/ might ??? get an identification and who knows maybe access to a manual if there ever was one. In fact I'd be very surprised if someone there couldn't put a manufacturer's name to that mill, there's some extremely knowledgeable people on that forum as far as older machine tools and there history. I'd also try real hard to properly identify exactly what spindle taper it has, if it's a fairly uncommon one your then going to have to decide what to do at that point. In any case with all that rust I'd guess the spindle taper is going to need regrinding anyway. Some tapers can be reground if there's enough meat left into a more common taper. If it's got sleeve type spindle bearings then it's a low rpm machine for sure and that moves it's build date back a bit.

I'm certainly not trying to dissuade you from your rebuild plans, And in no way am I anything like an expert, so fwiw I'll try adding the little I've picked up in a lot of years of gathering information so this might get a bit long. First I'd do a Google search for a free online PDF of the book Testing Machine Tools written by a Dr. Georg Schlesinger. He literally wrote the book and invented some of the test procedures, and those in modified form are still in use today on the latest and worlds best cnc machine tools. Even my Chinese manufactured lathe very obviously copied and uses his test methods on it's certificate of accuracy. So I'd download that PDF and print it off, your going to need it. It details the alignment checks your going to be doing dozens of times on each part. Most would consider it fairly expensive at around $100 with shipping, it's a non optional purchase imnsho. Machine Tool Reconditioning written by Edward Connelly back in the mid 1950's. Available new from here, http://www.machinetoolpublications.com/ There's still nothing else available or newer that's been written since it was published. It expands on and details how to measure and maintain the critical 3 dimensional alignments that the Schlesinger book shows. I personally wouldn't touch any machine tool rebuild without having a copy. It's a non optional purchase if you expect to do even close to a proper job without a previous formal education about the topic of hand scraping and rebuilding machine tools. And the less you know the more you need it. Got a public library in your town? If so try and get them to bring in a copy of the Moore Tools book Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy through there inter library lending service. While Schlesinger and Connelly touch on it, Moore did the best job of explaining and showing illustrated diagrams of how each machine tool slide has 6 directions of possible inaccuracy as well as having various combinations of any or all of them. Finally understanding and grasping that concept was pivotal in my machine tool education. It's an expensive book unless you can easily afford it direct from Moore Tools, so the library could save you a few bucks.

Because of that mills antique and size status, direct questions about the mill itself wouldn't be welcome there, https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/m ... nspection/ General questions once you do learn enough to post above beginner or entry level questions would be ok for specific areas your trying to correct and the best method to do so. Most of those guys are either pros or very highly experienced hobbyist's so be careful how you word anything and don't expect them to be mind readers about what you mean. And try and use known and accepted terms at all times. As far as videos, I don't know of a better channel than this one. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD1jVj ... j8BQqDMPHw Jan could easily rebuild machine tools to industrial level accuracy's and does know exactly what he's doing. I'd suggest going through all of his past videos. And definitely watch the rebuild series he just started yesterday about correcting a RF 45 sized vertical mill for a friend of his as you'll learn a lot. Machine tool rebuilding even at the hobby level and back to as new or better condition obviously isn't impossible, but it directly relates to how much time and effort your willing to go to and still be successful. And a lot of it just isn't as intuitive or obvious as it first seems. Guessing at anything is most definitely not what should be done. I'd also highly recommend NOT forcing any parts on that mill at any point during it's disassembly. Derust the parts for however long it takes, don't get impatient or you are going to break irreplaceable parts. That rust can and does weaken parts a lot. For threaded rusted together parts get a big can of Kroil and don't be conservative with it's use or how long to wait until it works. Sometimes a bit less than red heat with a propane torch can also help, as well as using the warmed up parts to melt common candle wax to help wick the fluid wax into joined parts and lubricate them for helping in that disassembly will work. You'll thank me later if after that derusting you wire wheel all the parts clean and put a heavy coat of spray bomb primer on all of them. That stops further rusting and there much cleaner and nicer to handle. Just use a single edged razor blade to then scrape that primer coat off where your needing to hand scrape the slide surfaces. It also wouldn't surprise me that it's going to need all new feed screws, nuts and remaking at least some of the parts. Proper over size pre threaded bronze nut blanks and lengths of ACME feed screws are available commercially, Roton, Nook, Thomson would be a few but there's others. And don't throw any old parts away until your rebuild is completely finished and fully proven to work as it should. I also suspect some replacement gear making might be in your future.

At the minimum I'd say your going to need a granite surface plate as large or larger than your longest flat surface on that mill, a very accurate cast iron straight and angled straight edge in the same length or longer for checking flat surfaces and dovetail angles that can't be checked on the surface plate. Raw straight edge castings are around and a search on that PM Rebuild forum will bring up some hits for those, old ones are also around, but in either case your still going to have to hand scrape those to the accuracy level you want using that granite surface plate as your first project.A very good machinist's level, .001" - .0005" dial indicator, magnetic stand, a .0001" reading test indicator and stand, a good quality cylindrical square would be helpful as well as some pre tested and known to be both flat and accurate 123 blocks, a range of wood working clamps, a brayer to roll out the spotting medium your also going to need. And probably a commercially made hand scraper and carbide blades available here, https://www.dapra.com/biax/scraper-blades although a shop made scraper can be made. There's some YT videos showing how to make them since there not all that complex or hard to build. And a slow speed diamond wheel for resharpening your carbide blades. A couple of good quality (Norton) tapered and flat stones to remove scraping burrs and maybe some smooth cut files. Possibly one of the clones of the Tormach wet grinders like this https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzl ... der/t32720 could be adapted to whatever diamond wheels you buy. The usual industry standard used by most doing hand scraping and built by Glendo branded as an Accu-Finish diamond tool sharpener are no longer being produced, and even used prices are still upwards of $1k for anything in decent condition. I hope I haven't killed off your enthusiasm, but I still think it's best to know what your getting into first before you even start. And trust me, any scraping and machine measurement / alignment knowledge you gain is going to further ruin your life as far as being seriously dissatisfied with highly worn or poorly made machine tools. :-)
John Hasler
Posts: 1852
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:05 pm
Location: Elmwood, Wisconsin

Re: It followed me home!!!

Post by John Hasler »

Were there really any line drive machines in production as late the late 1930s?

I wouldn't use anything as abrasive as a wire wheel on any of the precision surfaces. Pitting has little if any negative effect on ways when it involves less than half the surface. No point in making extra work for yourself.
Glenn Brooks
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: It followed me home!!!

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Dennis, you might try emailing Tony Griffiths at Lathes.co.uk

Tony@lathes.co.uk

He has posted a very comprehensive list of machine tools and service Manuals on his web site. Alas, his site has become almost impossible to search unless you already know what you are looking for…so an email might be best.

The design and build of the square, bolt together case sort of suggests to me that the machine could be a 1950’s DIY home built kit. Back mid century, when machine tools were not widely available to hobbests, home built kits with some castings, were very popular, and affordable, for many home shop machinists.

More Photos of the back and sides would be helpful. Particularly showing where the drive line was located.

One last thought, the parts numbers on the bearings will likely tell you the era the machine was built.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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