Milling Vise Squareness
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Milling Vise Squareness
I've got a Grizzly G3617 vertical/horizontal mill, and I upgraded the vise a few years ago to another Grizzly product, mainly to get the advantage of the Anglok-like clamping capability found in Kurt vises. (The original vise had no such feature.)
The vise has worked well over the years, but as I increase my skills and tackle more demanding jobs, I have found the vise is not up to my needs. Today I decided to machine a new set of vise jaws with milled steps in the top surface for clamping work pieces. I determined that the most important feature of the new jaws was that they be flat and parallel. I took some stock and mounted it on parallels in the vise, and then took a clean up pass on each side with a fly cutter. I then removed the work and put it on the granite plate and moved it under a dial indicator. Imagine my surprise when I found the two milled sises were up to .005" out of parallel.
I spent a lot of time tracking the problem down, and it seems the vise is out of parallel to the table by about .005" along the X axis and about .003" along the Y axis.
Is this common? I found little to no literature on the web about vise tolerances. I have "fixed" my vice by shimming with notebook paper, but that seems wrong. Any suggestions?
Thanks
The vise has worked well over the years, but as I increase my skills and tackle more demanding jobs, I have found the vise is not up to my needs. Today I decided to machine a new set of vise jaws with milled steps in the top surface for clamping work pieces. I determined that the most important feature of the new jaws was that they be flat and parallel. I took some stock and mounted it on parallels in the vise, and then took a clean up pass on each side with a fly cutter. I then removed the work and put it on the granite plate and moved it under a dial indicator. Imagine my surprise when I found the two milled sises were up to .005" out of parallel.
I spent a lot of time tracking the problem down, and it seems the vise is out of parallel to the table by about .005" along the X axis and about .003" along the Y axis.
Is this common? I found little to no literature on the web about vise tolerances. I have "fixed" my vice by shimming with notebook paper, but that seems wrong. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Kelly Jones, PE
A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
George Bernard Shaw
(1856-1950)
A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
George Bernard Shaw
(1856-1950)
- Bill Shields
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Re: Milling Vise Squareness
If the vise is out in X then it is presumed to be out on Y.
Getting a vise square in the table is the first thing to do when you get it.
Check the fixed jaw to the X axis travel. If it is not square..then stop and figure out why...fix it and move on.
It can be as simple as a loose key which aligns the vise to the table....or as serious as the T slot on the table not being truly square with the quide way of the mill.
Suggest you check that the T slot is true before you do anything with the vise.
Getting a vise square in the table is the first thing to do when you get it.
Check the fixed jaw to the X axis travel. If it is not square..then stop and figure out why...fix it and move on.
It can be as simple as a loose key which aligns the vise to the table....or as serious as the T slot on the table not being truly square with the quide way of the mill.
Suggest you check that the T slot is true before you do anything with the vise.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
Re: Milling Vise Squareness
Spend the big bucks for a Kurt vice. If dials in parallel to the table every time.
I did and am grateful every time I use the mill.
RussN
I did and am grateful every time I use the mill.
RussN
Re: Milling Vise Squareness
If I read Kelly's original post correctly, his problem is that the bed of the vise is not parallel to its base--not really anything related to how the vise is positioned on the mill table. As near as I can tell, there are two ways around that problem and others like it where the vise itself is defective:Bill Shields wrote: If the vise is out in X then it is presumed to be out on Y.
Getting a vise square in the table is the first thing to do when you get it.
Check the fixed jaw to the X axis travel. If it is not square..then stop and figure out why...fix it and move on.
1. View the generic Kurt clone as a kit of parts from which you can maybe make a nice vise given sufficient equipment, motivation, and effort. Or ...
2. Do like RussN suggests and get a good vise to start with. I still hate my round column mill/drill, but I hated it even more before I put a decent vise on it.
Kelly says he didn't find much about vise tolerances on the web, but at least some of the (probably better) manufacturers do publish tolerances for their own products. For example: https://www.glacern.com/gsv_690
-- Russell Mac
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Re: Milling Vise Squareness
Russell got it exactly right.The vise appears to be out in the Z axis, that is, parallelism to the table surface. That is why "shimming" works.
Don't get me wrong, this vise is WAY better than the original vise that came with the machine. And a couple years ago I machined a new key to overcome a slightly undersized key that came with it. That vise now serves as a bench vise on a movable table I built.
I'm going to spend some more time today seeing if I can find a way to "fix" the one on the milling machine. I am not hopeful. If I do end up buying another vise, then the current project is not required.
Don't get me wrong, this vise is WAY better than the original vise that came with the machine. And a couple years ago I machined a new key to overcome a slightly undersized key that came with it. That vise now serves as a bench vise on a movable table I built.
I'm going to spend some more time today seeing if I can find a way to "fix" the one on the milling machine. I am not hopeful. If I do end up buying another vise, then the current project is not required.
Kelly Jones, PE
A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
George Bernard Shaw
(1856-1950)
A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
George Bernard Shaw
(1856-1950)
Re: Milling Vise Squareness
Kelly, just for the record, what's the model number of the Grizzly vise you're trying to fix?
-- Russell Mac
-- Russell Mac
Re: Milling Vise Squareness
Used kurt vises at auction sell for what import clones do.
A used (not ab-used) kurt will be a better vise, and it's a good alternative for those who can't afford a new one.
Steve
A used (not ab-used) kurt will be a better vise, and it's a good alternative for those who can't afford a new one.
Steve
Re: Milling Vise Squareness
Kurt might still have a "scratch and dent" catalog on their website. My friend got a really good Kurt from that catalog that only had some paint missing on a couple of corners, but still was perfect in use. It was far less expensive than an unblemished one.
Just a FYI.
--earlgo
Just a FYI.
--earlgo
Before you do anything, you must do something else first. - Washington's principle.
- liveaboard
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Re: Milling Vise Squareness
No used ones for sale in Europe I could find; I could get a new one though, if I had $1,500 to spare.
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Re: Milling Vise Squareness
It seems that this issue could be resolved with some careful set-up by truing the vise base on a surface grinder.
Ted
Ted
Some people raise the IQ of the room when they enter.........others when they leave.
Re: Milling Vise Squareness
I'm missing something in your original post Kelly. If the fixed jaw is trammed in correctly to the X axis it can't be out that .005". If your using keys in the vise to set it square to the tables X axis travel, either or both the machining on the vise base for those keys and/or your table tee slots could be off. Those keys are only meant to get you close anyway so I never use them and instead just align the vise's fixed jaw by eye sight against a tee slot to get me close and indicate from there. With a bit of practice it only takes a couple of minutes to indicate the fixed jaw. About the best video I know of that explains why a vise without keys is better and how to very quickly tram any vise in would be this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_l2dhpIOLY
If it were me I'd strip the vise down to it's bed and check how parallel it is either by measurement or better on a surface plate. Also, some but not all vise manufacturers purposely machine an inward leaning tilt to the fixed jaw of a couple of thou to then help compensate for tightening pressures on the part your holding. It's also highly likely when you pull that vise apart you'll find the angle lock wedge is as cast from the factory. Re-machining the wedge surface will help pull the moving jaw down a lot better and it will be much more consistent. Surface grinding that wedge surface would of course be better, but not many have one in a home shop. I found with the factory un-machined wedge on the off shore vises trying to properly adjust that anti lift set screw on the rear center moving jaw was just about impossible.
The vise body being out in your Y axis might well be inaccurate, but it's your initial squareness indicating of the fixed jaw in X that will set your part squareness in both X,Y "IF" your table travel in Y is in fact square and 90 degrees to the X axis. But that's another issue well outside your current vise problems. Once the vise is known to be correct you can then test for any other problems or table geometry issues. Describing exactly how your measuring and getting the indicator readings you are would make it a lot easier to make some better and more accurate suggestions though.
If it were me I'd strip the vise down to it's bed and check how parallel it is either by measurement or better on a surface plate. Also, some but not all vise manufacturers purposely machine an inward leaning tilt to the fixed jaw of a couple of thou to then help compensate for tightening pressures on the part your holding. It's also highly likely when you pull that vise apart you'll find the angle lock wedge is as cast from the factory. Re-machining the wedge surface will help pull the moving jaw down a lot better and it will be much more consistent. Surface grinding that wedge surface would of course be better, but not many have one in a home shop. I found with the factory un-machined wedge on the off shore vises trying to properly adjust that anti lift set screw on the rear center moving jaw was just about impossible.
The vise body being out in your Y axis might well be inaccurate, but it's your initial squareness indicating of the fixed jaw in X that will set your part squareness in both X,Y "IF" your table travel in Y is in fact square and 90 degrees to the X axis. But that's another issue well outside your current vise problems. Once the vise is known to be correct you can then test for any other problems or table geometry issues. Describing exactly how your measuring and getting the indicator readings you are would make it a lot easier to make some better and more accurate suggestions though.
Re: Milling Vise Squareness
ill make a suggestion , unless for whatever reason you feel you need a rotating base , get a cnc style vise .
they are quite a bit more versatile then a flange mount vise as you can mount them on their sides or nose to give you more options .
and on another note , using keys to align your vise for anything but roughing work is a waste of effort . it might work on high quality vintage iron , or high end modern cnc machines . but anything that came out of china it isnt gonna happen , and i say that as happy owner of two grizzly machines
they are quite a bit more versatile then a flange mount vise as you can mount them on their sides or nose to give you more options .
and on another note , using keys to align your vise for anything but roughing work is a waste of effort . it might work on high quality vintage iron , or high end modern cnc machines . but anything that came out of china it isnt gonna happen , and i say that as happy owner of two grizzly machines