Van Norman dividing head

Discussion on all milling machines vertical & horizontal, including but not limited to Bridgeports, Hardinge, South Bend, Clausing, Van Norman, including imports.

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Glenn Brooks
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Van Norman dividing head

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Hello all,

Really running out of ideas... Need some help identifying the center in an old time Van Norman 10” dividing head. Their old manuals say it’s supposed to be a VN #2 collet (50v). However it is a long slender straight taper that looks nothing like a 50v collet. And has all the wrong dimensions for a B&S, Jarno, or MT.

Anybody have any idea what this might be?
65196D64-48AD-4F36-B23F-8812866CF1F7.jpeg
F0DFE293-1095-4E97-AD3F-A1F2A1997FA4.jpeg
B42DE626-8322-42ED-8D3B-C967C54E356C.jpeg
Large end: 1.297”
Small end: 1.135”
Taper length: 4.25”

Really would like to find some collets for it!

Thanks much,
Glenn
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Steggy
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Re: Van Norman dividing head

Post by Steggy »

Glenn Brooks wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:58 amNeed some help identifying the center in an old time Van Norman 10” dividing head...

Large end: 1.297”
Small end: 1.135”
Taper length: 4.25”
The big end diameter is very close to that of MT4 (~1.23") but the taper length is shorter than MT4 (~4.63). It is indeed a weird size.

BTW, that dividing head looks as though it could rupture an elephant if he tried to lift it.
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Glenn Brooks
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Re: Van Norman dividing head

Post by Glenn Brooks »

BDD,

Actually, it’s fairly easy to lift. Not that I would want to throw it onto the top shelf everyday.

I did try to insert a 4-3 MT sleeve. Swallowed it up! Why would they make something like this! And not tell anybody...
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Steggy
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Re: Van Norman dividing head

Post by Steggy »

Glenn Brooks wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:10 pm BDD,

Actually, it’s fairly easy to lift. Not that I would want to throw it onto the top shelf everyday.

I did try to insert a 4-3 MT sleeve. Swallowed it up! Why would they make something like this! And not tell anybody...
There is a very rare MT4-1/2 taper, which I have never seen in some 60 years of monkeying with machine tools. I wonder if that is what you have.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Music isn’t at all difficult.  All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!  :D
Glenn Brooks
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Van Norman dividing head

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Yes, I looked at the dims, seems a tiny bit wrong for the 4 1/2 MT.

Now, I did just buy a cheapo B&S #11 collet off eBay. Just to see if it will slide into the spindle and fit... could be this taper is one of the standard sizes and VN just decided to make an extra long center to fill up the space in their DH. I hope.

Turns out BS 11 is still made - but primary sold as “arbors” not collets. They are still used in several grinding machines.

So switching gears to ARBORS, from COLLETS. mainly I want to identify what this taper is, and then try to move forward from there...

Hoping the trial and error thing will work this time around. Otherwise my new hobby is collecting antique collets.
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earlgo
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Re: Van Norman dividing head

Post by earlgo »

Gee, if you only knew someone with a machine shop you could make drawings and have them make an ER-XX collet chuck on a tapered shank that fit your situation. I think I'd make one in #40 size if it were mine. Or you could make a tapered sleeve with the Van Norman taper to #3 MT, then you could use all sorts of ready made stuff.

--earlgo
Before you do anything, you must do something else first. - Washington's principle.
Glenn Brooks
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Re: Van Norman dividing head

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Earlgo, main problem is trying to figure out what the taper is. So far it doesn’t match anything. Then machine an adaptor sleeve to be able to use some more commonly available size, such as 3c or maybe r8, to hold small diameter work. Don’t really need to hold tooling as this is a DH. Just be nice to have it functional to go along with the VN 12 when it gets back in service.

Glenn
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Steggy
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Re: Van Norman dividing head

Post by Steggy »

Glenn Brooks wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:57 pm Earlgo, main problem is trying to figure out what the taper is. So far it doesn’t match anything. Then machine an adaptor sleeve to be able to use some more commonly available size, such as 3c or maybe r8, to hold small diameter work. Don’t really need to hold tooling as this is a DH. Just be nice to have it functional to go along with the VN 12 when it gets back in service.

Glenn
Maybe this will help.
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Music isn’t at all difficult.  All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!  :D
earlgo
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Re: Van Norman dividing head

Post by earlgo »

Mr. Brooks.
I didn't mean to be a smarta... uh, fellow, but the taper is easy to figure out according to the Machinery's Handbook.
Taper per foot is equal to the difference between the large and small end divided by the length and the result multiplied by 12.
In your case it is (1.297-1.135)/4.25 = .0381 taper per inch x 12 = .4574 taper per foot. You are right that the taper is not shown in the MH, but the MH does not list VN tapers.
I'd take a piece of 4140 PHT drill and ream a #3MT in it. Mount it on a #3MT mandrel and turn and grind a .4574TPF on the outside. BYU.
Hope all is well in your part of the state.
--earlgo
Before you do anything, you must do something else first. - Washington's principle.
Glenn Brooks
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Re: Van Norman dividing head

Post by Glenn Brooks »

BigDumbDinosaur, thanks for the reprint. Very interesting history. I did learn somethings new reading through it.

Earlgo, thinking about your suggestion last night. I don’t have any experience with ER collets. Would they be suitable for work holding for smaller bits and pieces- such as making square headed shoulder bolts? Maybe in the 5/16” - 3/8” or 1/2” size range? I’ve read they are most useful for tool holding, and people don’t do work holding with them, as much.???

In any event, I think Iam ready to give up chasing these unobtainiums and see if I can’t just duplicate the one taper I do have, and like you suggest, make a collet sleeve for some standard size. Actually I have a set of VN C collets, which are 1/2 the size of this center. They would work. Or the ER series. Always have been interested in them...

Thanks
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
earlgo
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Re: Van Norman dividing head

Post by earlgo »

Glenn, since my Atlas 3 jaw chuck is not concentric I decided to invest in an ER collet chuck on a #3 MT shank with drawbar. After fiddling with it a bit it works great for holding small parts to turn and thread. I chose the ER20 series which is good from .06 to .50 by 1/32ns. (The largest that is available is ER40 which goes from 1/8 to 1 by 16ths.) It is quick to load and holds small stock very well. It sticks out of the headstock 2 inches, but that allows the lathe carriage to get under it.
Something similar might be useful for your use.
--earlgo
Before you do anything, you must do something else first. - Washington's principle.
pete
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Re: Van Norman dividing head

Post by pete »

Sorry but I can't help with your spindle taper identification Glenn. I can't recall ever seeing a D/H with that design either. I'd guess it as maybe pre WW II ? An older machinery's handbook pre war might identify it? But none of mine are even close to that age.There are quite a few links to more spindle taper information in this thread link that might help? https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/a ... rs-345584/

But fwiw about ER collets, what I decided on after buying my BP clone was a full set of ER 40's due to using the Emco ESX collets previously that are much like and maybe are interchangeable with ER 25's. The 40's can hold tool shanks larger than what someone sane with only a R8 tapered spindle would use. ER 32's are more appropriate for a BP sized mill, but I also wanted them for work holding on the lathe. The ER collet system was afaik invented by Rego Fix in Switzerland? and designed as a tool holding only collet. They can be a bit slow to use for part holding, so in a commercial shop there unlikely to be used and almost for sure 5C would be chosen instead. But other than that speed they can and do work very well for fairly simple work holding. The advantage to the ER's other than maybe the ER 8 and 16 size is they can hold a range of part sizes of almost .040" difference within each collets size so a huge number aren't needed. Mine were made in imperial nominal sizes, but I can also hold any metric shanked tooling just as well. A couple of bonuses in a home shop right there. But ER's aren't good for holding short part lengths, anything within the collet needs to almost be as long as the collet is other wise the tail end of the collet can be damaged. Choosing who to buy from is a bit tricky though. There's numerous YouTube videos showing the very cheap sets with what are imo horrendous run outs that any of my drill chucks and almost all of my lathe chucks could easily beat. If it were me, any listing for a set of ER's of any size that didn't also list some guaranteed run out numbers I just wouldn't buy. And if there off shore I'd still double check they can do exactly what they say there guaranteed to do. There's a few accessories available for ER 32 & 40 that were no doubt copied from the same design the 5C uses but with the ER taper and the all important collet nut. Square, octagonal collet blocks, an adaptable pre made lathe chuck, ER spindexer etc. Because the ER's don't have the internal and external threads at the rear of the collet like 5C has then those 5C's do win with the number of further accessories, part stops,indexers,hand wheel and lever operated 5C lathe closer's etc. The ER's are an excellent collet design, but for work holding the 5C are more versatile. A lot more money as well though to have a full range of sizes and accessories. But with ER's I think it would be helpful to have the larger 32 or 40 and maybe a set of 20's for both work and tool holding. But if you've already got 5C then those ER's would gain you nothing for any work holding.
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