Forced Into the 21st Century

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Downwindtracker2
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Forced Into the 21st Century

Post by Downwindtracker2 »

I'm coming up to the programming part of installing a VFD on my lathe . It's a Hitachi WJ200, the manual is 522 pages. I'm a 72 year old retired millwright. It's not an easy fit. Oh well, I'll keep working at it until I get comfortable if not complete understanding. I have TIG/stick welder, that little sucker had to be programmed for stick. What happened to days of cranking the knob and flipping the switch. Enough bitching.
A man of foolish pursuits, '91 BusyBee DF1224g lathe,'01 Advance RF-45 mill/drill,'68 Delta Toolmaker surface grinder,Miller250 mig,'83 8" Baldor grinder, plus sawdustmakers
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Steggy
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Re: Forced Into the 21st Century

Post by Steggy »

Downwindtracker2 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:48 pmI'm coming up to the programming part of installing a VFD on my lathe . It's a Hitachi WJ200, the manual is 522 pages. I'm a 72 year old retired millwright. It's not an easy fit. Oh well, I'll keep working at it until I get comfortable if not complete understanding. I have TIG/stick welder, that little sucker had to be programmed for stick. What happened to days of cranking the knob and flipping the switch. Enough bitching.
In the world of computer programming, we call it "creeping featurism."

Truth be told, about 80 percent of the programmable features in many of these VFDs are meant for production uses and are gross overkill for hobby purposes. I'm like you: turn a knob, pull a lever, flip a switch, etc. I spend far too much time programming things as it is. I don't want something attached to my machines that requires more programming, especially while trying to understand documentation written by someone for whom English isn't even a second language. I really don't understand why a simple speed control has to be so damned complicated.

BTW, I have an older Century MIG welder, in which voltage, wire feed, etc., is controlled by turning knobs. A pox on the machines (amd their designers) that practically require a computer science degree just to make a weld. :evil:
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BadDog
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Re: Forced Into the 21st Century

Post by BadDog »

There are a few of us around. Seems like everyone is fixated on CNC and fancy electronics, including most of our local metal/machine hobby group. I do like a DRO just for convenience, but that's as far as I go. Everything in my shop is manual and simple. I spend my days at a computer designing, programming and problem solving. I want the opposite in my truck builds and shop. A friend of mine says it best, "I like big dumb parts". My big welder is a really nice old Sync 351 and my "hot metal glue gun" (as John Evans calls it) is a simple little Millermatic 175, though I concede that I would love a 251.
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NP317
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Re: Forced Into the 21st Century

Post by NP317 »

Downwindtracker2 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:48 pm [snip] the manual is 522 pages.[snip]
Hopefully that huge manual is in 30 different languages and the English section is only 17 pages long...
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Steggy
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Re: Forced Into the 21st Century

Post by Steggy »

NP317 wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:13 am
Downwindtracker2 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:48 pm [snip] the manual is 522 pages.[snip]
Hopefully that huge manual is in 30 different languages and the English section is only 17 pages long...
RussN
I just replaced our (gas) kitchen range and was a bit startled to see a 64 page owner's manual come with it. I was thinking "just how complicated can a stove be?" Turns out the manual was printed in four languages, and the pages describing all the bad things that could happen with an incompetently-operated stove took up well over half of the English-language section. There were more pages full of cautions, warnings, etc., than actual information on how to use the stove's features. Are people really that stupid that they have to be warned that stoves get hot, boiling liquids can cause burns, and a gas flame can start a fire?
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Downwindtracker2
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Re: Forced Into the 21st Century

Post by Downwindtracker2 »

Sadly, no. It's all English. But it was written by an English speaking computer nerd . 50 or 60 pages are safety warnings, though. It's tough reading a book if you have to learn the language first. I've assembled 20 pages of Tips, some collected here.They are invaluable . I watched a video by Clough42 setting up his TECO on a 10x22, he had one page. I have War and Peace. I have read most of Tolstoy as a kid, so my reading skills. were good. Notice the past tense, were. chuckle.

I have a 250x, an earlier version, it's just two knobs, amperage (feed rate) and voltage. It's a bit nasty, later versions are sweeter.
A man of foolish pursuits, '91 BusyBee DF1224g lathe,'01 Advance RF-45 mill/drill,'68 Delta Toolmaker surface grinder,Miller250 mig,'83 8" Baldor grinder, plus sawdustmakers
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Re: Forced Into the 21st Century

Post by Bob D. »

Generally there is a quick setup screen for vfds with just the important bits. Motor hp, max hz, accel/decel rates, remote or vfd panel for control. It's not like all the parameters are blank, it is pretty much ready to go. You do have the ability to tailor to exactly what an application needs but for start/stop and changing speed not much is needed.
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pete
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Re: Forced Into the 21st Century

Post by pete »

Yep I can sure relate, my computer skills & knowledge are below basic. But my Baldor VFD was pretty easy to figure out once you did wade through all the information that wasn't pertinent to actually programming it. You might also check if there's a searchable PDF of your VFD manual online. If so you can plug in the search word for what your trying to find and the correct pages should come up. That's the only instance I know of where an electronic version might be superior to a hard copy. Then it's just down to how you want to set it up, how the machine your using it on is equipped, and if your using a braking resistor. I've got a 5 hp rated VDF on a 3 hp mill. Even with that it would sometimes fault out on the high rpm pulley position. So I had to adjust and slow the motor ramp up time to a few more seconds and that cured the problem. It did take me a bit of time using it to then figure out what a good range of pre set speed ranges would be for the mills pulley ratios. But there mostly only close and half the time I'll fine adjust the speeds anyway. Most of the other options are overkill as BDD already said and can probably be ignored.

But mines also set up so it's keypad is the only control used. Converting a lathes OEM head stock and carriage switches so there low voltage and can perform the same functions into the VFD if your doing that are well outside my just as poor electrical knowledge. I think it's worthwhile adding a standard mushroom head emergency stop/kill switch upstream of the VFD. It wouldn't be allowed in industry because the power isn't physically locked out. But I shut the motor off using the VFD, then kill the power to it any time I'm changing tools or getting my hands in where they shouldn't be if there was a restart. Knowing your exact spindle speed isn't maybe that important, but if your also using mechanical step pulleys and/or back gear I also think it's worth adding a cheap digital tach instead of having to use a home made conversion chart for spindle speeds of what the motor is turning verses what the pulley ratio is actually giving you. If I had the money? Newall and I think a few others make a lathe specific DRO that's capable of being slaved to the correct type of VFD so it will do a programmable and adjustable constant surface speed when facing that would be real nice to have. :-)
Downwindtracker2
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Re: Forced Into the 21st Century

Post by Downwindtracker2 »

The stump right now is the setting "Level of thermal electronic setting." in the power up sequence. I guess I got to dive into that section and try to understand. Heck if I could just get power up, I could use the lathe. I need it to ream and shorten bronze oilite bushings for my 1958 utility trailer springs. The reason I decided to tackle this headache.

The next hurtle are controls. I discouvered switches can't be monetary, they had to be continuously on . A drum switch now has to be placed in the now required new control panel. When I program it.

I can still use those push buttons for the jogs. When I program them !

For E-stop I'll use a mushroom head . That will activate electronic braking and dump that power into stove top element. When I program it.

The lathe is Taiwanese belt drive , back geared . The replacement motor is a 2hp Baldor. It had a 1 1/2hp originally . it wasn't a bolt in, but that was what I did for living, so it wasn't much of a problem. If I can get 50% slower and maybe 50% faster I'll be thrilled.
A man of foolish pursuits, '91 BusyBee DF1224g lathe,'01 Advance RF-45 mill/drill,'68 Delta Toolmaker surface grinder,Miller250 mig,'83 8" Baldor grinder, plus sawdustmakers
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BadDog
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Re: Forced Into the 21st Century

Post by BadDog »

I'm not sure if I follow, but if you want to keep the momentary switches for start etc, just put a latching relay in place. One momentary closes the NO relay which then energizes it's own coil from it's output staying "on" (closed). The stop momentary just breaks that back circuit to make it "off" (NO relay opens). If the coil voltage matches output, it can potentially be just that simple. If not, or isolation issues are a concern, a transformer may be necessary. That's my simple ignorant explanation, I defer to those more knowledgeable about the finer points to clear that up as required.
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Re: Forced Into the 21st Century

Post by whateg0 »

BadDog wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:10 pm I'm not sure if I follow, but if you want to keep the momentary switches for start etc, just put a latching relay in place. One momentary closes the NO relay which then energizes it's own coil from it's output staying "on" (closed). The stop momentary just breaks that back circuit to make it "off" (NO relay opens). If the coil voltage matches output, it can potentially be just that simple. If not, or isolation issues are a concern, a transformer may be necessary. That's my simple ignorant explanation, I defer to those more knowledgeable about the finer points to clear that up as required.
That's how the mains contactor on my 10ee is wired so I can use the original pushbuttons for on and off. I wired up the original spindle controls to the fwd and rev inputs and added a pot where the original speed control rheostat was located so I'm using all of the original controls. Someday I want to add a rapid reverse for the eslr, and a slow jog feature, but neither is real high on my to do list.

What are the controls like now? What did the momentary switches control originally?

These things are pretty handy but as noted were never really intended for home shops. There are plenty of industrial uses where they need some or all of the features included. I have seen ads for other "3 phase converters" that I would assume are just vfds without the bells and whistles. Why not use one of those (aside from already having purchased the Hitachi)?
Downwindtracker2
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Re: Forced Into the 21st Century

Post by Downwindtracker2 »

The VFD doesn't have that much power for controls. A transformer and contacts would be another headache. From what I understand, it can be done. Besides, I have a use for that one usable set of contacts that came off the lathe. Remember, it was Taiwanese and electrics weren't their strong suit.It had pathetic toggle switch to control the contacts when I got it. That was the impetus to go VFD and 3ph. I am putting a cheap 3hp magnetic starter off Amazon on the infeed line ahead the VFD, but that's just for power failure protection. Yes I know, there is a function that can be programed into it.
A man of foolish pursuits, '91 BusyBee DF1224g lathe,'01 Advance RF-45 mill/drill,'68 Delta Toolmaker surface grinder,Miller250 mig,'83 8" Baldor grinder, plus sawdustmakers
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