Reeves drive sheave hub bore repair

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BadDog
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Re: Reeves drive sheave hub bore repair

Post by BadDog »

Ahh, now I think I see. Actually, the good bore is the portion inside the pulley sheave/plate/disk. It mounts on the motor with the spring and snout down on the motor. So, parting and replacing as you suggest would replace the damaged portion. However, there would also have to be a new bonze running sleeve bearing added for the floating sheave to run on.

Of course, even with the new hub-stub, brazed and turned, and then a heat shrunk bushing sleeve placed, there is still the problem of side loads on the sheaves having a lot of leverage against a shaft only half way up the bore. I noted you talked about adding a bolt to help apply tension, which if placed from the fixed sheave end through the empty bore and into the motor stub (drilled and tapped maybe 3/8-16), that should help some with holding it hard against the (somewhat minimal, but there) shaft shoulder.

Did I get that right? If so, an interesting and different fix than I had considered.

But at this point I am sill leaning to focus on the motor shaft (much investigation needed, but sure sounds good). Either replaced for longer (and potentially over size?), or extension welded and cleaned up, then shallow bore the hub for a sleeve to clean-up and locate the lower end next to the motor while the upper original and most of the new shaft support a key for driving. Adding in the end bolt idea may still be a good idea.
Russ
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wlw-19958
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Re: Reeves drive sheave hub bore repair

Post by wlw-19958 »

Hi There,

Perhaps I read more into your response than was intended.
Your response did come across as flippant and condescending.
I accept your apology and trust we will have no more discourse
on this matter in the future. I hope we will remain good fellows
and brothers in machine shop endeavors.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb
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BadDog
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Re: Reeves drive sheave hub bore repair

Post by BadDog »

Here is another idea I kicked around and discarded, though perhaps prematurely. I could bore the damaged half of the hub only enough to clean it up good, but leaving significant keyway. Make a slip fit heavy walled bushing to drop in. Use either silver solder or bronze brazing rod (might get too hat and damage the bronze slide bearing?) to secure the bushing. Then bore to size, and then cut through to reveal the keyway.

Up side it is very simple much like any other bushing job, and I still have virgin material coupled with the key for drive along with the brazed bushing. But the reason I discarded it is mainly the concern for damaging the original structure while brazing. Is that outer slip bearing sleeve furnace brazed, or shrunk on, and how hot can it get without damage? I was also not entirely convinced of the mechanical properties regarding the drive being primarily against the bushing. My guess (and a WAG it is since this exceeds by many orders what little I think I know of ME) is that particularly with the non-trivial portion remaining in the virgin hub, and the very good shear strength of brazing (even if I don't get perfect pen), it would never fail in my environment and would outlast me along with a few subsequent owners.

But still, it seemed a risk not worth pursuing when a longer shaft provides a significantly superior solution, and stabilizing ring on the non-loaded to keep it from floating around wouldn't even interfere with the top driven key.

So to recap, in my head it seems my current best course of action is getting a full 5" length engagement on the shaft. The 2 front runners there are removing the rotor and either completely replacing the shaft with a longer shaft, or creating a locating feature and turning/welding/turning an extension stub. Not having ever done or seen that shaft replacement, I must say I feel more than a bit nervous on this, though more investigation may dampen that jitter. The replaement shaft also allows option on oversize drive diameter to match oversize ~0.910" bore to clean up the hub. But along the lines of what someone else posted earlier, I'm not enthusiastic about creating a bastige component for someone in the future to scratch their heads and curse me over. :D So for now, sticking with a nominal 0.875 bore is the plan.
Russ
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BadDog
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Re: Reeves drive sheave hub bore repair

Post by BadDog »

Absolutely Webb. What obviously came across as flippant and condescending was really just my excitement and inability to believe the good fortune. I didn't think about how it could be perceived as demeaning. Hmm, on further reflection I guess it actually was somewhat intended as “flippant” in the way I described, as a contracted textual portrayal of a childish enthusiasm of “Is it really? You really have the right one? Wow!” type of response one might make talking to a friend during such an experience. So I guess I can’t deny the flippant part, but there was no intent for it to be demeaning. I certainly have no reason to harbor any ill will on the matter, and I really do feel bad that I came off that way, and not in any way because of it costing me the possibility of that part.

But most of all, thank you for accepting my apology for the unintended consequences of my response. In any case, yes, that matter is closed.

That said, I value your knowledge and experience, so I would be grateful if you have thoughts you care to contribute and were inclined to offer any assistance on the repair options.
Russ
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wlw-19958
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Re: Reeves drive sheave hub bore repair

Post by wlw-19958 »

Hi There,

Perhaps some "soft solder" would suffice. Melting point is
much lower and therefore damage to the bronze sleeve is
not an issue. If the repair sleeve goes deep enough so that
one of the set screws will pass through it, that would add to
the anchoring of the sleeve in the bore of the pulley.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb
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BadDog
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Re: Reeves drive sheave hub bore repair

Post by BadDog »

Maybe. The repair sleeve as I see it would go 2.5" deep. And you are right, the set screw 90* to the key would either clamp on it, or pass through it. I'm probably over thinking and "overbuilding" as a consequence of my lack of knowledge. So down that path, something like this to fix the lower half damaged bore, still retaining some of the initial keyway, perhaps leaving the lower portion full circle (key doesn't go down there anyway), AND add the shaft length to make it 5" of engagement. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm mostly convinced that any solution that doesn't have 5" of shaft engagement is doomed. It seems to me that the use of a ~2.5" motor shaft engagement is doomed in anything less than a prefect world.

I wonder if even something like a good epoxy or even sleeve locker for the bore repair might be worth considering. I'm constantly told I underestimate those options, but I would guess that shear strength of even soft solder likely exceeds epoxy/locker by a large gap.

So all together that would yield good fit top to bottom with minimal opportunity to go bad (like causing the part to fail completely), full length engagement of the key, shaft stays common original size. Sounds pretty good, and only a moderately overwhelming amount of work.
Russ
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wlw-19958
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Re: Reeves drive sheave hub bore repair

Post by wlw-19958 »

Hi There,

Epoxy or Loctite® would work in this application. Loctite® will
loose its hold in temperatures around 300°F to 500°F (depending
on which one is used). This is comparable with soft solder (which,
depending on the alloy of the solder can be 275°F to over 500°F).

Soft solder like Brownells Hi-Force melts at 475°F and has a tensile
strength of 14,000psi to 28,000psi (depending on the materials being
soldered). Loctite® 640 has a tensile strength of 3190psi (after 24
hour cure) and will start to loose its bond when it reaches 180°C
(about 356°F).

Even a real low temp soft solder (like Brownells Tix Soft Solder) will
have a tensile strength of 4.000psi (on steel) and melts at 275°F.
This is very comparable to Loctite®.

The main question will be: "how hot will the pulley assembly get when
in use?" I doubt it will reach much over 200°F but I am uncertain
(no data for me to consult).

As to the sleeve, I think installing it and then drilling and tapping through
the wall of the sleeve will add to the sleeve's resistance to moving. While
on the subject, here is a pic of the sleeve I made to adapt the aforementioned
pulley (Note the tapped hole in the side).

Image

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb
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BadDog
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Re: Reeves drive sheave hub bore repair

Post by BadDog »

Excellent information, thank you. Like you said, it's not entirely clear how hot they get. I know from experience that they experience a LOT of friction, and they get way hotter than I want to touch. I'm more than a little concerned that the temp is going to encroach on releasing any of the listed options other than Brownells Hi-Force. I'm pretty confident in saying it shouldn't reach 400* in normal operation.

And thanks for the bushing pic. I wish I could just make something like that, but the just isn't enough thickness for a sleeve adapting 0.875" to around 1", which is then only going to leave about 0.032 keyway to grip.

As it is, the maximum plan would be to turn it just enough to clean up the bore, around 0.910, and fit a 0.900 bushing, then solder. Then, turn the bushing for a slip fit on the shaft. The sleeve at this point be only about 012 thick, plus solder. And finally, drill the set screw hole, and cut a 1.5" (2"?) key slot (leaving 1" (or 1/2") full circle intact at the bottom). Thus leaving a full 1.5"+ key engagement with the lower original motor shaft, and another roughly equivalent engaged with the new shaft extension. There are also 2 set screws top and bottom on the keyway, and 2 set screws at 90* of each of those.

Assuming I can get full solder penetration with the full 2.5" deep sleeve, that would almost be suitable for a "short shaft" repair, avoiding the need for extending the shaft. Would be nice, but I'm not convinced of the longevity without the full length shaft. And based on the upper set screws, assuming they were not added by the PO when he tried to flip the drive wheel over, would seem to indicate the factory expected a long full length 5" shaft. So I think that the shaft extension is in my best interest anyway.

Classic conflict, don't want to overcomplicate and waste resources (including time), and don't want to cut it short and waste it ALL. Decisions, decisions...
Russ
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wlw-19958
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Re: Reeves drive sheave hub bore repair

Post by wlw-19958 »

Hi There,

I doubt the pulley would get over 250°F tops. If you want
to explore epoxy, something like Brownells "Acraglass" epoxy
would fill the bill. The stuff isn't cheap but it works really well.
Acraglass can take 275°F to 290°F (bluing tank temperatures).
It is often used for bonding the sleeves in rifle barrels (when re-
lining an old barrel with a new rifled sleeve).

If soldering, tinning the sleeve and bore ahead of time will make
sure the bond is excellent.

Anyway you go, cleanliness is the key. Even touching the parts
with your bare hands can leave contamination that will screw-up
the bond (especially when soldering).

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb
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steamin10
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Re: Reeves drive sheave hub bore repair

Post by steamin10 »

Yes BadDog, I think you see how I am proposing killing two birds with one stone. Sometimes you can wind up with a dead Duck tho If the conditions are not satisfied, (side loading on the motor shaft, that destroys a fit) Sometimes just making it live longer will take it way past our uses and possession, as all machines break or wear at some point.

Just an idea, like before, have fun with your solution, as there are several to chose from.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
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BadDog
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Re: Reeves drive sheave hub bore repair

Post by BadDog »

I've heard good things of Acraglass before, and in the context you mention, but hadn't considered it here. As steamin' added, it's really only got to be good enough to last beyond my needs, so maybe I am over thinking this whole things. Maybe just fixing a bushing (solder/epoxy/etc), boring to very thin size, slotting for key and drilling for 1 screw, mount it, and move on with life. No motor disassemble, no turn/weld/turn/slot. Particularly tempting if I do solder it, and carefully tinned as mentioned, so in spite of the thin wall it should have solid and full support.

Yet again I'm a victim of analysis-paralysis. ;)
Russ
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Re: Reeves drive sheave hub bore repair

Post by spro »

We are fortunate to have friends with ideas and parts.
Fwiw I have a Baldor 3~ 1 1/2 hp C face apart. The shaft would be pressed out from the back of the rotor. First the rear bearing is removed, as it stays on the shaft. The rear bearing is only a 6203 with an id of around .625. Beyond that is a sleeve around 2" length to the rotor head. At this point I should mention something about welding directly onto the rotor shaft when it is intact. It is composed of laminations which chase the field and welding voltages and heat exceed those sometimes. Anyway, until the rear sleeve is off, we don't know the diameter of the shaft which passes through the rotor. The Leeson may be built differently but I think it is safe to say a number of things. The outer section of shaft measures about 1.2" next to the rotor head, it is a stepped shaft. That area continues unfinished until near the outboard bearing. That OD is reduced to the ID of the 6205 outer bearing which is, 25mm, .9843" . Since the bore is only wallowed to .910, there is shaft longer which passes through the bearing... to the bored drive. The shaft doesn't have to be reduced until it extends into it.
If it follows what I've seen, there are certain bearing retainer parts in reassembly. There is a section between the front bearing and rotor head. The front case should fit the same, there is release from the bearing and (bell) case before the shaft.
I'm only in a discussion here and must mention the unknown. Some of this is explained by a previous Person's info. We are able to know that it isn't a keyed shaft. THAT will leave traces to it being press splined or what they did.
Then the exact thing Webb mentioned, comes around again.
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