Riding Scale 'Diesel" locomotive
Moderator: Harold_V
Riding Scale 'Diesel" locomotive
Has any one built a riding scale locomotive actually powered by a small diesel engine? I would think that a diesel-hydraulic
locomotive might be feasible.
Thanks!
"Lone Wolf"
locomotive might be feasible.
Thanks!
"Lone Wolf"
Re: Riding Scale 'Diesel" locomotive
There really is no such thing as a "small" Diesel engine. The characteristics of the Diesel cycle demand a crankcase design that is deep to reinforce the main bearing webs so the engine doesn't pound itself to pieces while running. The result is an engine that tends to be tall for its displacement. Getting such an engine to fit in a riding scale locomotive's carbody would be difficult at best.
Another factor against doing a small Diesel in riding scale is the nasty vibration these engines produce. A single-cylinder Diesel is a mechanically unbalanced machine (as is true of all one-lungers without a balance shaft) that produces severe torsional vibration. Good luck trying to keep your locomotive in one piece!
Something else to consider is noise. If you are expecting a sound like what you hear from an EMD 567 you are going to be sorely disappointed. The best way I can described the sound of a one-cylinder Diesel is for you to imagine the racket made by one of those road-construction machines that grinds up old pavement. It's especially bad with the air-cooled models, all of which sound as though they are coming apart at the seams while running.
In summary, I know of no one who has tried such a thing. Engine size, weight, noise and vibration are all factors against it. About all you'll see that is positive is some black smoke—and surprisingly little of it.
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Music isn’t at all difficult. All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!
Music isn’t at all difficult. All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!
Re: Riding Scale 'Diesel" locomotive
I recall somebody had a small 4 cylinder unit, but not much else about how it worked or not. Some questioned if it was really diesel or just a gas engine. Another poster had mentioned that there is a limit to how small a diesel can be made from a thermodynamics view point. It needs a certain amount of mass and heat to run well. Again, not something easy to fit in our locos. I've seen enough hints that in 2.5" scale you might find a fit but in smaller than that it gets to be a real squeeze.
-ken cameron
Syracuse Model Railroad Club http://www.SyracuseModelRr.org/
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mailto: kcameron@twcny.rr.com
In the Upstate New York US area of the world
Syracuse Model Railroad Club http://www.SyracuseModelRr.org/
CNY Modelers http://www.cnymod.com/
Finger Lakes Live Steamers http://www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org/
Member JMRI Developer Team http://www.jmri.org/
mailto: kcameron@twcny.rr.com
In the Upstate New York US area of the world
- Erskine Tramway
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Re: Riding Scale 'Diesel" locomotive
Kenny Scheer built a 15" gauge loco with a 3-cylinder diesel engine. I think it's in California now.
Mike
Mike
Former Locomotive Engineer and Designer, Sandley Light Railway Equipment Works, Inc. and Riverside & Great Northern Railway 1962-77
BN RR Locomotive Engineer 1977-2014, Retired
BN RR Locomotive Engineer 1977-2014, Retired
Re: Riding Scale 'Diesel" locomotive
Yes, but 15" gauge doesn't qualify as "riding scale," eh?Erskine Tramway wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:49 pm Kenny Scheer built a 15" gauge loco with a 3-cylinder diesel engine. I think it's in California now.
Mike
The three-cylinder engines aren't too bad from a vibration standpoint, but the ones I've heard running all sound like a coffee can full of rocks tumbling downhill.
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Music isn’t at all difficult. All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!
Music isn’t at all difficult. All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!
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Re: Riding Scale 'Diesel" locomotive
Manufacturers are starting to produce 4 hp-10hp small footprint diesels that would likely fit on 7.x gauge locos. Certainly those built to 2.5” scale. Some as low as $300.
one of the big issues with noise is that modern diesels are designed to run at up to 4000 RPM’s. Hence the high speed clanking you hear as the pistons and valves are cranking along at very high speed.
Several ways to dampen diesel engine noise include reducing vibration between the motor and steel frame and sound emitting from the air intake. So use rubber mounting brackets to the frame, fit a sound dampening intake muffler, use sound dampening mat insulation around the engine compartment, and fit a good muffler to the exhaust port.
Google search RV diesel gen sets to see what some manufacturers have done to create a very quite diesel motor.
Glenn
one of the big issues with noise is that modern diesels are designed to run at up to 4000 RPM’s. Hence the high speed clanking you hear as the pistons and valves are cranking along at very high speed.
Several ways to dampen diesel engine noise include reducing vibration between the motor and steel frame and sound emitting from the air intake. So use rubber mounting brackets to the frame, fit a sound dampening intake muffler, use sound dampening mat insulation around the engine compartment, and fit a good muffler to the exhaust port.
Google search RV diesel gen sets to see what some manufacturers have done to create a very quite diesel motor.
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Re: Riding Scale 'Diesel" locomotive
Thanks for all the replies to my question. My idea is mostly centered on a larger scale/gauge such as 12 or 15 inch gauge loco.
I really don't want to replicate an EMD or another manufacturer's design. I think possibly a diesel hydraulic might be the way to go.
In any case, I plan to do a lot more research and study as to the practicality of such a project. I would also appreciate any other
advice or insights.
Lone Wolf
I really don't want to replicate an EMD or another manufacturer's design. I think possibly a diesel hydraulic might be the way to go.
In any case, I plan to do a lot more research and study as to the practicality of such a project. I would also appreciate any other
advice or insights.
Lone Wolf
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Re: Riding Scale 'Diesel" locomotive
Lone wolf, we have a couple of threads going now regarding electric motive power. Seems like for Grand Scale trains, forklift motors and battery packs are ideal. Particularly using lithium pouch cells in the battery pack. Maybe something for you to look at.
Glenn
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Re: Riding Scale 'Diesel" locomotive
For an engine in that scale, a Kubota diesel would most likely work just fine. I can't address the sizes built today, but back in the early 80's they had a 16 horse model, three cylinders.
H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
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Re: Riding Scale 'Diesel" locomotive
A member of the Mid-South Live steamers has a wide-body Santa-Fe diesel unit in 7 1/2" gauge, 1.6" scale that has a 3 cylinder Kubota diesel and hydraulic drive. It is a powerhouse! I believe it is a 22 HP. Has the exhaust vented through the roof so that when it's pulling a load up a grade you get some exhaust smoke, which looks cool. It also doesn't vibrate the chassis everywhere either. Not sure how it's mounted, but sure that there are dampers in there somewhere. Weighs in about 1,800 pounds, or so I'm told, so it can really lay down the power.
Using that power plant, the wide-body locomotive style was a must. I can't see why that same drivetrain wouldn't work in a 1/8th scale E or F unit, an ALCO PA, or any other cowl unit. If it can work in 1/8th scale, should be able to work it into just about any larger scale as well.
Using that power plant, the wide-body locomotive style was a must. I can't see why that same drivetrain wouldn't work in a 1/8th scale E or F unit, an ALCO PA, or any other cowl unit. If it can work in 1/8th scale, should be able to work it into just about any larger scale as well.
Re: Riding Scale 'Diesel" locomotive
I always thought that FP45 was a true diesel eletric?
Also the way his control were on the back of it was really neat.
Also the way his control were on the back of it was really neat.
- Benjamin Maggi
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Re: Riding Scale 'Diesel" locomotive
There was a guy in Delaware with a railroad (http://www.islandpondrailroad.com/) that described some experiments he had done with this. I think he had a working engine. A quick search of his website didn't show it, but it might be buried in one of his links. You could reach out to him.
"One cannot learn to swim without getting his feet wet." - Benjamin Maggi
- Building: 7.25" gauge "Sweet Pea" named "Catherine"
- Building: 7.25" gauge "Sweet Pea" named "Catherine"