Need help Home built Firearm question...

[UBeGon]

I know it's absolutely legal for me to build a firearm for my own use, and never for resale. I have links to the ATF rulings on this one.

My question is this, can I legally build a firearm as a gift specifically for my Son who is otherwise legally able to own firearms? Instead of just an interpretation, please provide me with an ATF ruling letter? The absolute last thing I need or want is to give uf a personal father and son vacation in federal prison.

The reason I ask is that over the years my son and I have done many projects together, as well we have also made it a tradition that XMas and Birthday gift for each other must be made by hand for each other. I'm sitting here in my deer blind, and was thinking that a PERFECT gift from me to him would be a nice break action hunting rifle that I built 100% (well maybe not the barrel boring and rifling)...

[hammermill]

check for a pm if i remember correctly, it can be inherited by a family menber.
given as a gift to a family member

local, county, state laws may all add complications. if it is a question i would invite him in helping finish the rcvr, the only part in question atf wise.

a direct written question to the atf will get you a direct answer.

they are a few forums that deal extensively with homgunsmithing and many members are good and knowing

not knowing your planetary location it is the best i can offer.

[UBeGon]

I was thinking about basing the rifle on a beefed up Remington Model 6 or something similar. The receiver is basically a couple of plates and a little bar stock, a little filing and drilling....

I got the PM, i'll go check out that site too. It may be just as easy to write a letter to the ATF too, but would hate to have my question fall into an Obama crony and end up hurting more people than helping.

I live it Texas, generally speaking Texas laws either mirror Federal laws, at least for now anyway.... Obama's cronies have these ridiculous signs all over saying "Help turn Texas blue"

[UBeGon]

Hammermill;

I went to the site that was pmed to me, and find it about as useless as I have found google for this exact subject. After 20+ searches, and then about 50 pages of various posts I find myself still at ground zero. Then after all of that wasted time I figure I would register and ask only to find out the site is FOR PROFIT and REQUIRES a DONATION to register. DONATION means to me that it is an optional practice. REQUIRING a DONATION is in no way optional, and as a result it becomes a fee and is for profit. Either its a fee or its a DONATION, it CANNOT REQUIRE a dollar amount and then call it a donation, require and donate are mutually exclusive in my opinion.

So now I return to a forum that I am a member and ask for additional assistance with my original question, and I kindly REQUEST assistance by sending me an official document/letter link from the ATF or/OR a link to RELEVANT information that will assist me in getting to the information requested. PLEASE don't respond with B/S statements of just search it, I have been SEARCHING for almost 20 hours over the past week PRIOR to asking here, had I found it in my search I would find no reason to have asked the question in the first place.

[Harold_V]

Steady, big fella. We're polite people on this board. Don't agitate, don't attack, and don't prejudge the readers. We have a strict policy against personal attacks.

If you don't find the answer you're looking for, a direct inquiry to ATF is most likely in order. And---I'd suggest you keep the response you get from them, as what you're likely to get is one man's opinion, which may or may not stand up in court.

Harold

[ken572]

Hammermill;

I went to the site that was pmed to me, and find it about as useless as I have found google for this exact subject. After 20+ searches, and then about 50 pages of various posts I find myself still at ground zero. Then after all of that wasted time I figure I would register and ask only to find out the site is FOR PROFIT and REQUIRES a DONATION to register. DONATION means to me that it is an optional practice. REQUIRING a DONATION is in no way optional, and as a result it becomes a fee and is for profit. Either its a fee or its a DONATION, it CANNOT REQUIRE a dollar amount and then call it a donation, require and donate are mutually exclusive in my opinion.

So now I return to a forum that I am a member and ask for additional assistance with my original question, and I kindly REQUEST assistance by sending me an official document/letter link from the ATF or/OR a link to RELEVANT information that will assist me in getting to the information requested. PLEASE don't respond with B/S statements of just search it, I have been SEARCHING for almost 20 hours over the past week PRIOR to asking here, had I found it in my search I would find no reason to have asked the question in the first place.

UBeGon,
It only took a couple minutes to find this. In addition to the LINK, I also
copied the Info which pretty much answer's your question. If you need to
know more, CALL THEM and / or WRITE THEM.

http://www.atf.gov/content/Firearms/fir ... -questions

Q: Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?

A: With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale
and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.

[18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105]

Ken.

[hammermill]

not real sure about your problem, the legal section is open for free to guests( no fee)

having been a moderator there the last 10 plus years the topics you are asking about are discussed ad nasuem

to the tune 38 pages

your welcome to puruse the federal atf site the answers you seek are also there

http://www.atf.treas.gov/

20 hour time is a lot of searchng to find this excerpeted from the atf web site

Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an
individual who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person
to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must
be shipped to a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or
she may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a
NICS background check. More information can be obtained on the ATF website at www.atf.gov
and http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html. The GCA provides an exception
from this prohibition for temporary loans or rentals of firearms for lawful sporting purposes. For
example, a friend visiting you may borrow a firearm from you to go hunting. Another exception
is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition
by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident
who inherits a firearm under a will or by State law upon death of the owner. See 18 U.S.C. §
922(a)(5)(A).

In regard to transferring firearms between individuals residing in the same state, any person may
sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of the State where he resides as long as he or she does not
know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing
firearms under Federal law. Please note that there may be State and local laws that regulate
firearm transactions. Any person considering acquiring or transferring a firearm should contact
his or her State Attorney General’s Office to inquire about the laws and possible State or local
firearms restrictions. A list of State Attorney General contact numbers may be found at
http://www.naag.org/.

5. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?

[steamin10]

I hope you understand what the meaning of IS is, because ther is only the answer by ATF. And that is as good as it gets , being printed on paper.

Not to complicate the issue, you have all the information with these knowing folks, but there are exceptions, to any and all rules. I build cannon. That is a problem, as it may not be a Cannon, but a destructive device. The devil is in the details, go slow and cover the legal basis, and save every scrap of paper. Once you ask the question, you have to be accepting of a 'NO' answer for its worth.

I have my own opinion on primitively built firearms, and would like to build a Gatlin type shooter. I am into fun, and not wargames. Yet I have 3 paint ball outfits, to go play with. I cover newbies in the field, and we have FUN.

We cannot and must not ignore the law. Find out what your solid ground is, from the ATF, and go with confidence with that.

All the best, from my Midwest. Home of the best deer hunters, and free thinkers there are. Big Dave. (Sorry about gloat.)

[UBeGon]

I'm not trying to be hard headed on this issue, and honestly the confusion is probably the way the ATF and Lawyers like it.

I understand the laws regarding buying and selling and/or transferring weapons manufactured be licensed manufacturers. My issue is the lack of certainty when it comes to the "grey" areas, or more the areas where the ATF Ninjas have the ability to turn my life upside down based on subjective interpretation of vary vaguely written laws... I am looking for the general laws on firearms, I am looking for specific information/interpretations of personal built firearms.

I've been been through the legal system's unrelenting and ruthless guilty till proven innocent crap. Almost $10k and 7 months of my life flushed down the toilet all because an officer didn't care enough to LISTEN even the slightest to the "victim". I was left with no recourse for recovering the money, time or damage to my reputation.
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The laws I have read on personal built firearms have too many vague references that can be taken multiple ways. Words like "intent" "manufacture" "sell/transfer" etc. Thing get even more muddied when you combine the vague references with family...

For instance, if I am building out an 80% receiver, and I ask a machinist friend how to perform a required step. He opts to come to my house and help me do that step. If he stands behind me and walks me through it without touching the receiver, or equipment We are safe. BUT if he performs even the simplest task of leveling the receiver in the vice we have TECHNIQUELY crossed the line and in the strictest interpretation of the laws we face prison.

Same thing goes if I buy an 80% receiver, drill one required hole, then decide I don't want to finish the receiver and I sell it to a friend to get my money back...

My biggest issue, and what I am struggling with, and trying to clarify comes down to one word, "intent" as far as I am concerned, I as a parent should be able to give anything They want to their children as long as it is legal for the child to have it. BUT the law says clearly that I cannot build a firearm with the INTENT to transfer or sell it. Well clearly in this situation I INTEND for the finished product to go to my son. Strictly speaking, I am building with the intent to transfer ownership to my son.

I'm adult enough to know that unless I do something stupid like build an NFA or destructive device, for my son the ATF isn't likely to waste time or resources on it, especially in this case where it'll be a break action single shot rifle, but at the same time I also read and listen to the news, and it feels like every day there are stories about this agency or that harassing/abusing citizens... It would be nice to have something that is "official" that can clearly be referred to in the event the issue ever did come up.
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Anyway, maybe a Home Hobbyist Gun smithing forum isn't the right place to find assistance on amateur hobbyist gun smithing topics....

[Harold_V]

I agree with your reasoning, and feel, all the more, that's the reason you should get an opinion directly from ATF. They, in a sense, will either give your their blessing, or denial, to do as you wish to do. Then you won't be subject to interpretation, or at the mercy of folks who think their opinion is correct.

If you prefer to not inform them of your actions, then do it and keep your mouth closed. For all they know, your son built the weapon.

All of us would like to think that government agencies have bigger fish to fry, but some of them have a nasty habit of preying on easy targets, as if to imply that they're actually doing something to earn their keep. They'll gladly pounce on defenseless individuals and avoid confrontations with those who fight back. There was one such grand display in Seattle about ten years ago when anarchists destroyed a lot of public property, all the while the cops stood by and watched, save for one individual who maced some women who were innocently sitting in their car.

Harold

[ctwo]

I hope the ATF does give correct interpretation as I've read letters from them extending their own opinion in such matters. The only reliable way is through case law.

It's unfortunate that the intention is already recorded, but you are always free to change your mind.

[jpfalt]

Is there any chance that you and your son could arrange to build this together with your son building the receiver? Then the legal issues seem pretty clear and you can be in compliance while still sharing the experience.