New guy thinking about expanding hobby into gun work?

Topical Discussions include anything pertaining to Gunsmithing.

Moderators: JackF, Harold_V

Post Reply
User avatar
BadDog
Posts: 5131
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 8:21 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

New guy thinking about expanding hobby into gun work?

Post by BadDog »

I got into machining to support my 4x4 "rock crawler" hobby, but for various reasons I got out of that a few years back. Since then, my hobby has been mostly random stuff around the house, and some pretty cool stuff for friends, and a few paying jobs to cover the cost of the machines. But it and I have lost "purpose" to some extent.

Now I find my interest in guns is growing again, but in the direction of "quality" rather than just collection, and then the obvious connection presents itself. At the moment I have no interest in making long guns, bedding stocks, carving wood, and so on; though I might at some point get interested in a highly accurate varmint rifle with floated barrel or the like. What I do want to do is learn to make my guns the best they can be, and address some issues. A friend has offered me some books including the first 2 "Kinks", along with general advise. Good stuff, and I'm enthusiastically reading, but seems to lack depth in the areas I'm interested in.

For reference, my first 2 projects in order.

1) My Bushmaster M17. Nice concept, price was right, and it allows for use with easy entry/exit from my remaining off road vehicle, the "Expedition K5". Problem is, the execution was not the best. It's an "AR-18" gas piston action. The main ares of concern are heat (a few hundred rounds and you can't hold it with gloves), an awful trigger (due to flex/bind in the ~6" transfer rod), and a tendency for FTF jams, particularly on the first. The heat is generally dealt with by shrouding and ventilating/slotting the extruded upper, and this is in the plan, along with 3 forward rails with a pistol grip forend. There are some documented efforts on the web to improve the trigger, and I'll be experimenting along those lines. But other than some polishing on the feed ramp, which seemed to help but did not fix, I don't know what to do about the "failure to feed" issue. One thing of note, it's now had about 500 rds sent down range, most of that just a few weeks ago, and it almost seems to be "shooting in", and the failure rate has dropped to maybe one FTF on the first round every 5 mags or so (and it occurs across 5 30rds and 1 10 rd, no mag specific), so I think I still have a interference/burr somewhere. I'll also be removing the garbage "carry handle with integrated sight" and replacing with custom charging handle plus an elevated rail mounting my Eotech holo sight with after market iron sights.

2) I have a Mossberg 500 with pistol grip in a sling on the side of my bed, primary function should be obvious, but it will also likely be going on extended desert excursions along with the M17, both in slings mounted in the truck. For it I want a forward (probably mag mount rather than forearm) light and laser sight, but don't like the stuff I see offered. Also considering a folding stock. But unless you just have suggestions for good alternatives, those points are not the reason for my post, it's only intended use/goal background. My point for posting this here is that the action is nowhere near as smooth and clean as what I'm used to with my old pump guns. What sort of work is typical/useful for improving the Moss 500 general function and reliability?

Eventually, once I learn a bit and see if this is a good direction for me, I thought I might try to educate myself on "trigger jobs", "accurizing", and maybe even try my hand at a trick compensated 1911 of some flavor.

So where does one go (web, books, ???) to learn such things. Again, not so much interested in the typical "gun smith" build/repair stuff, but just learning the techniques to improve what I now (or will) have.
Russ
Master Floor Sweeper
hammermill
Posts: 2938
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:43 pm
Location: pendleton or

Re: New guy thinking about expanding hobby into gun work?

Post by hammermill »

lassen college has a excellent course and you may look at american gunsmithing institute. lots of video,s

look at smart flicks to rent some.

once you start working on others firearms you need atf licensing, city,state, proper zoning et cetera.
User avatar
BadDog
Posts: 5131
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 8:21 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: New guy thinking about expanding hobby into gun work?

Post by BadDog »

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll look into them.

I'm surprised there isn't more "how to" documents, sites, and forums available on-line.

I don't expect to ever have any desire to work on firearms belonging to someone else. I just wanted to learn a few ins-and-outs for improving my own.
Russ
Master Floor Sweeper
User avatar
alphawolf45
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 8:57 am
Location: South Central Arkansas

Re: New guy thinking about expanding hobby into gun work?

Post by alphawolf45 »

I think you take one project at a time and research and consider options and then do the best you can with the tools and skills you have at that moment.... The only education thats worth anything is what you learn while You are actually doing the work..Reading about something or watching somebody else do it wont automatically give you the skills you are after..........

My disclaimer, I have built a few guns.. Some are mighty nice, thuthers are hid back in the closet :lol:
J. Randall
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:34 am

Re: New guy thinking about expanding hobby into gun work?

Post by J. Randall »

Russ, here is one that I read pretty regularly.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve ... /f/9411043

Another that I used to read but have not been to lately.
http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3 ... 3ae731fb60&
User avatar
BadDog
Posts: 5131
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 8:21 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: New guy thinking about expanding hobby into gun work?

Post by BadDog »

Thanks guys. The "take your time and examine/learn one piece at a time" is my typical intended method of operations, though often to deal with what I thought was a very narrow scope, more knowledge (and tools) are required than I at first imagine. At the moment I only know enough to know there is too much I don't know.

I've got a pretty good idea how to get a regular trigger/sear engagement refined to some level better than mass production. My main issue there is the inherent Bullpup issues with multiple pivots, levers, and a no-straight transfer rod flexing. Obviously focus on getting the trip pressure/action as clean and minimal as possible along with refinements in the rather sloppy implementation of the 2 primary transfer pivots, and that is supported by other posts I've read specifically addressing the M17 problem. But of course, as stated, I want to study it as well as possible, learning what I can, before I start with my own investigations.

And the intermittent failure-to-feed is very troubling, and something I just don't see the problem behind.

The rest is just rambling discussion, but those 2 issues I really want (and need with respect to the FTF) to address soon.

Anyway, thanks for the references, I now have several avenues to expand my reading, and places to ask questions once I can frame them a bit better.
Russ
Master Floor Sweeper
GeorgeGaskill

Re: New guy thinking about expanding hobby into gun work?

Post by GeorgeGaskill »

Yavapai College, just up the road from you, has some gunsmithing classes. I don't know how easy it is to enroll in them but they are closer than northern Calif. On the other hand, the Lassen College program classes are full time for one week (some of them are several weeks long, though.) So it might make more sense than a couple of hours three times a week schedule typical of college classes.
unioncreek
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:40 am

Re: New guy thinking about expanding hobby into gun work?

Post by unioncreek »

If your going to get into any gun work for others regardless of them paying you you would need an FFL that is for gunsmithing. You can do gun work for others if they are right there when you do the work, but can't leave even parts with you to work on.

Bob
User avatar
steamin10
Posts: 6712
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 11:52 pm
Location: NW Indiana. Close to Lake Michigan S. tip

Re: New guy thinking about expanding hobby into gun work?

Post by steamin10 »

I have the Moss 500, and bought my son the New Haven, that is simply an earlier model. They are the core of our shot gun needs, both having bird barrels and rifled barrels with the cantalever scope mount. They serve us well with Propoint Dot scopes. They are wide aperture, and low power, and enhance shooting at shotgun ranges with sabots. Good groups on a 14 inch pizza plate at 60 yds. (at 100, the plate is lost to sight under the dot, but works on deer sized targets. Antlers and Butts stick out.)

IMHO, you would destroy the action finish on the 500 models to get them really smooth, and then face complete refinish. I am satisfied with performance from my off the rack models, even with my MEC reloads for clay busting.

I am told the various M-16 models go from good to horrible, as far as fit and finish. I dont own one, but know of one that had problems never solved. Dunno, could be the owners ham handed work.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.
User avatar
BadDog
Posts: 5131
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 8:21 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: New guy thinking about expanding hobby into gun work?

Post by BadDog »

Thanks for suggestion.

I guess an update is in order.

I suppose the 500 mostly just needed to be shot in. After running 100 or so rounds through it, it now seems much smoother, or maybe I just adapted to it. In any case, it now has a top side rail with laser sight above the receiver, and a custom tri-rail at the front of the magazine with LED light mounted. Adding a single point sling this week.

The M17 turned out good too. A bit of help from a friend and we've got it running reliably. It now has a long elevated rail on top, with 3 short rails forward on sides and bottom. It's fitted with Eotech holo sight, 45* backup sights, LED light, rail covers to provide some thermal isolation, and rail mounted folding bipod. Still needs additional ventilation and a custom charging handle. I'm also using a single point sling on it, and want to remove the front sling mount to clear the front of the lower rail.
Russ
Master Floor Sweeper
MatthewTheTerrible
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:41 am

Re: New guy thinking about expanding hobby into gun work?

Post by MatthewTheTerrible »

Baddog,

I'm new to this forum and this is my first post :-).

Regarding the FTF problems you've stated, every single time I've encountered this, without exception, it has always been magazine related.

When the action fails to return fully to battery, or, the cartridge inverts vertically (nose up and not entering the chamber), this in my experiance has always been caused by the feed lips on the magazine being to far apart (usually less than .02).

If you detect any set-back in the bullet/cartridge during the FTF, for me, this has always been caused by an out-of-spec mag catch (it causes the mag to sag which rams the bullet nose into the ramp or upper breech face).

Both issues will cause a round not to be stripped at all, however the secound case would be more likely here.

If multiple mags have this issue, look at the mag catch. If only select mags have the FTF issue, get out your calipers and compare the distance between the lips. Excess space will increase drag on the case while cycling.

Hope this helps,

Matt
User avatar
BadDog
Posts: 5131
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 8:21 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: New guy thinking about expanding hobby into gun work?

Post by BadDog »

It does not seem to be mag specific. I've got several brand new Bushmasters, and a couple of mil surplus, they all seem to do it, and most common on the very first shot.

Since it does not seem to be mag specific, the catch issue might be something to look into.

But it seems that after having run some few hundred rounds through it, I'm very rarely having a problem now. Maybe 1 in 5 to 10 mags last time I had it out. Still not acceptable by any means, but it seems to be "shooting in".

I'll definitely be looking into the potential catch issue, and examining my magazines. I also plan to number my mags next time out and start keeping a bit of a log to confirm if it is or is not mag(s?) specific.

One final point that thinking about the catch brings up. One of my remaining "this needs to be improved" issues is with the snug mag well itself. In the bullpup config, it's particularly troubling to have to trigger the release and actually PULL the mag free. I was thinking of doing a "drop free mod", so I'll keep this in mind when (if) I ever get around to it.

Much thanks for the suggestions.
Russ
Master Floor Sweeper
Post Reply