Spanish Mauser FR8
Re: .308 and 7.62 NATO *not* the same!
Which two--.308 Win./7.62 NATO, or .300 Savage? NRA states that when the development of the military round was nearly completed at U.K. Pendine Experimental Establishment in Wales, Winchester requested and was granted permission by the Ordnance Dept. to introduce the cartridge then called "Caliber .30 T65 under the Winchestr name as a sporting load in 1952. Therefore, since then, all the shooting public has been educated to the fact that the two, .308 Win. and the 7.62 mm NATO are supposed to be identical. There MAY be some differences in chamber dimensions of semi and full automatic weapons, but as far as the general shooting public is aware, the M80 Ball cartridge is the same as what you can purchase over the counter at Wal Mart.
As a side note, the .300 T65 was not was the front-line Army wanted. They wanted a cartridge with similarities of the German Kurtz (sp?), BUT since someone in the Procurement Section of the Pentegon still believed that all shooting done by Infantry should be done at ranges up to 1,000 yards, maximum range of 4,200 yards, the Army got a shortened .30-06 instead of a "burp gun.". All I know is what I read in the history books!!
As a side note, the .300 T65 was not was the front-line Army wanted. They wanted a cartridge with similarities of the German Kurtz (sp?), BUT since someone in the Procurement Section of the Pentegon still believed that all shooting done by Infantry should be done at ranges up to 1,000 yards, maximum range of 4,200 yards, the Army got a shortened .30-06 instead of a "burp gun.". All I know is what I read in the history books!!
Al Messer
"One nation, under God"
"One nation, under God"
Re: .308 and 7.62 NATO *not* the same!
Al,
I meant 7.62 and .308 diffs. The .300 savage was just a trivia tidbit.
The .308 was provided to the military for eval as the T65, the modified version of it as adopted was the T65E3 on 12/15/53. I don't think this really contradicts what the NRA says, it's just more detailed. The Kunhausen .30 cal service rifle shop manual covers the differences and dangers of confusion exhaustively. Manufacturers of 7.62 NATO chambered rifles also caution users about the difference. (Armalite, Springfield)
All this I say by way of discourse, please don't read any antagonism into it.
GsT
I meant 7.62 and .308 diffs. The .300 savage was just a trivia tidbit.
The .308 was provided to the military for eval as the T65, the modified version of it as adopted was the T65E3 on 12/15/53. I don't think this really contradicts what the NRA says, it's just more detailed. The Kunhausen .30 cal service rifle shop manual covers the differences and dangers of confusion exhaustively. Manufacturers of 7.62 NATO chambered rifles also caution users about the difference. (Armalite, Springfield)
All this I say by way of discourse, please don't read any antagonism into it.
GsT
Re: .308 and 7.62 NATO *not* the same!
Wouldn't dream of it!! This is like down at the service station 50 years ago!! Everyone has a good opinion.
Side note: The front-line Army wanted an assault cartridge and rifle, but the Russians got it instead: SKS & companion cartridge.
Side note: The front-line Army wanted an assault cartridge and rifle, but the Russians got it instead: SKS & companion cartridge.
Al Messer
"One nation, under God"
"One nation, under God"
Re: .308 and 7.62 NATO *not* the same!
I think that's the old 'careful what you wish for...' axiom. Troops are now complaining about the inability of the current anemic cartridge to do the job. I'd certainly rather have a 7.62 than the poodle shooter or the AK/SKS round.
GsT
GsT
Re: .308 and 7.62 NATO *not* the same!
Hey, Gene! I think I have figured out why the two cartridges have some minor differences in specs: Winchester was thinking in terms of a cartridge to be used in a bolt action Model 70, and the military was thinking of a cartridge to be used in semi and full automatic firearms necessitating longer chambers. What do you think? Does this sound at all logical??
Al Messer
"One nation, under God"
"One nation, under God"
Re: .308 and 7.62 NATO *not* the same!
That sounds quite likely, tho' as you can tell, it's hard to nail down a specific, definitive source. I've done a fair amount of thumbing through books and online searching for info since the start of this thread and can't find a source that has everything (history, differences, and possible dangers). It seems to me that if the military just wanted sloppier chambers (clearly with an auto one is less concerned with accuracy (oh, the uproar!) and in a military rifle reliability is of paramount importance.) that such a change would have little/no bearing on the cartridge spec. I also can't find a single .308 manufacturer warning about using 7.62 NATO, though manufacturers of 7.62 NATO all warn against using .308. (Though Springfield indicates that some Federal .308 is safe.) I may just break down and call Springfield and see what they can tell me.
GsT
GsT
Re: .308 and 7.62 NATO *not* the same!
If they will tell you anything new, please let us know as my curiosity is in overdrive on this question.
Al Messer
"One nation, under God"
"One nation, under God"
Re: .308 and 7.62 NATO *not* the same!
Goodness Al, I may make second year apprentice on this thread alone!
Well, Springfield wasn't filled with much more than the warnings I've seen that accompany their rifles, but a buddy told me to check with Fulton Armory and they have *very* nicely spelled it out on the linked page. The page actually has two seperate answers, both by the same author. Be sure to read both. Thanks for taking me to task and 'making' me learn the details. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/wink.gif"%20alt="[/img]
Scott, to answer your early question about gages, Brownell's has a 9-piece gage set in .001" increments for checking / chambering 7.62.
I'm 7.62'd out...
GsT
Well, Springfield wasn't filled with much more than the warnings I've seen that accompany their rifles, but a buddy told me to check with Fulton Armory and they have *very* nicely spelled it out on the linked page. The page actually has two seperate answers, both by the same author. Be sure to read both. Thanks for taking me to task and 'making' me learn the details. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/wink.gif"%20alt="[/img]
Scott, to answer your early question about gages, Brownell's has a 9-piece gage set in .001" increments for checking / chambering 7.62.
I'm 7.62'd out...
GsT
Re: .308 and 7.62 NATO *not* the same!
Want to discuss the virtues of the "thuty-thuty" next? (Snicker!!)
Al Messer
"One nation, under God"
"One nation, under God"
Re: .308 and 7.62 NATO *not* the same!
Depends, which side are you on? I've never owned a .30-30 m'self, and for a reason...
GsT
GsT