Lathe lubrication

All discussion about lathes including but not limited to: South Bend, Hardinge, Logan, Monarch, Clausing and other HSM lathes, including imports

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Mr Ron
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Lathe lubrication

Post by Mr Ron »

I have a Sheldon lathe circa late 40's-early 50's. The owners manual states to use SAE 30 oil for the spindle bearings. A man who was the production manager for Sheldon until it's closing says to use a high detergent oil. My lathe has bronze bearings. Would the lubricating oil depend on the type of bearings used? I believe Sheldon used Timken, cast iron, bronze and babbit bearings at one time or another. Care to comment?
Mr.Ron from South Mississippi
Mike Ehlert
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Re: Lathe lubrication

Post by Mike Ehlert »

I am interested to see any information.
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GlennW
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Re: Lathe lubrication

Post by GlennW »

If it's made it from the '40's to now with SAE30 oil, I can't think of a good reason to change now!
Glenn

Operating machines is perfectly safe......until you forget how dangerous it really is!
Carm
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Re: Lathe lubrication

Post by Carm »

Here's my understanding.
Detergent oils are for use in combustion engines that have a pump and filter to remove particles.
The detergent keeps bits in suspension so the filter can do its job of removal before return.
Machine tools don't see the same conditions as above. The heavier particles drop out into the sump, or any nook and cranny.
I wonder if detergent oils were available when your Sheldon was made.
You should be as suspect of my opinion as the production manager, but I don't use detergent oils in my tools. Ask him if he does.
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neanderman
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Re: Lathe lubrication

Post by neanderman »

My mechanical engineer father always said not to use detergent oils with porous (Oilite) bearings. With roller, ball or solid brass bearings, it's probably not a huge issue.

But with the availability of non-detergent, straight SAE30 oil, I'd just use that.
Ed

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warmstrong1955
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Re: Lathe lubrication

Post by warmstrong1955 »

Carm pretty well has it.
Should point out, that detergent oils are commonly used and specified in many hydraulic, circulation, and cooling systems.
The big difference being, the oil is pumped, and filtered. Filter performance is improved by having the solids suspended, which is what 'detergents' do.

I use non-detergent oils in my lathe & mill. All splash, no pump, no filter. Let the grungies precip to the bottom.

:)
Bill
Today's solutions are tomorrow's problems.
Mr Ron
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Re: Lathe lubrication

Post by Mr Ron »

Makes a whole lot of sense to not use high detergent oil. Thanks.
Mr.Ron from South Mississippi
Mr Ron
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Re: Lathe lubrication

Post by Mr Ron »

So far it's a hung jury. I posted this on another machine site http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/index.php) and got a different response. I have noticed that when I changed from one type of oil to a different one, I was filling the oil cups more frequently as opposed to less frequently. I don't remember which oil was which though. Less frequently would suggest to me that one oil had more tenacity and didn't leak out as fast, but it would also suggest the crud was kept longer in the bearings.

Here is my thought on the subject: Porous bearings will retain oil better if the oil is non-detergent. If the oil is detergent, crud will be flushed out of the bearings and will leak oil more due to clean oil passages. The crud retained when using non-detergent oil "binds" up the oil passages and keeps it from leaking. It seems a case can be made either way
Mr.Ron from South Mississippi
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warmstrong1955
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Re: Lathe lubrication

Post by warmstrong1955 »

Detergent oil simply will hold the particulates in suspension, as opposed to non-detergent, which will let them settle out.
As far as 'flushing', both are the same. That would be a matter of flow.
The difference would be, with unfiltered systems and detergent oils, you are flushing and moving oil and whatever the oil is holding in suspension, thru all the workings of the machine.
Gears, bearings, everything and everywhere the oil travels, the containments go with it.
Non-D oils don't do that, at least to the great extent that detergent oils do.

So.....non-filtered splash lubed & cooled applications, like lathe & mill heads, gearboxes, recip compressors, etc, rule of thumb....non-D.
Have a pump, and a filter, on a hydraulic, transmission, cooling systems, etc.....detergent oils. Key is to hold the particulates in suspension so the filter can take them out.

Bill
Today's solutions are tomorrow's problems.
SteveM
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Re: Lathe lubrication

Post by SteveM »

The same thing applies to automobile engines with no filters, like the Ford Model A.

Now, there are some who are using detergent oils and have not reported problems, but the idea of sending all the junk back through the engine doesn't seem to make sense.

Interesting thing to note is that the oil change interval is 500 miles, and every 2,000 you drop the pan and scrape the gunk off the bottom. That's all the stuff that settled out and would have been circulating, and boy was there a bunch of it last time I did it.

Steve
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warmstrong1955
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Re: Lathe lubrication

Post by warmstrong1955 »

SteveM wrote:The same thing applies to automobile engines with no filters, like the Ford Model A.
Now, there are some who are using detergent oils and have not reported problems, but the idea of sending all the junk back through the engine doesn't seem to make sense.
Interesting thing to note is that the oil change interval is 500 miles, and every 2,000 you drop the pan and scrape the gunk off the bottom. That's all the stuff that settled out and would have been circulating, and boy was there a bunch of it last time I did it.
Steve
That reminds me..... years ago, I helped a friend rebuild the engine in his ol' GMC pickup. '61 or '62....one of those beasties with a hood about 8" deep....
Small block Chevy in it, a 265 I think....I forget....
He always used non detergent oil. The engine had a filter, but he wasn't into all those new fangled oils & things, and stuck to what he always did. Non-D oil, every 2000 miles.

I have never seen an engine with so much sludge in it in my life.
The pan must of weighed 30 pounds. It had a channel thru it to the oil tube & suction screen.
The valley, between the lifters, was flat. completely full of sediment.

Amazing. It had a couple hundred thousand miles on it.

The difference.....non-D vs D.
I've rebuilt a lot of engines. 100's....and have still never seen one like that.

:)
Bill
Today's solutions are tomorrow's problems.
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BadDog
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Re: Lathe lubrication

Post by BadDog »

Wow, flash back! I tore into a 289 many years ago, considering it to build for an XR7. Same description, everything was just sort of leveled off with this sort of black waxy cake. Heads, lifter valley, and you could see where the crank and rod caps had kept a nicely fitted slot through the stuff in the pan. This stuff came out in cake chunks that were pretty substantial. Never seen anything like it, and until now, had no idea how could happen. But against all odds the motor actually checked out as good for rebuilding, though it needed machine work everywhere. I wound up not using it and sold it anyway.
Russ
Master Floor Sweeper
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