Massproduction of steamengines

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crackchecker
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The main reason that I think it would work is.....

Post by crackchecker »

That you would get the newbies into steam rather than looking first into the diesels. If there was a cost effective RTR steam engine that was striped down for sale with dress up's availiable you would probably make a good run if marketed correctly. The only downfall to owning one of these engines is that those rivit counters would bash the hell out of you which is this hobbies major downfall anyway. After running your RTR steamer for a while gaining experience and knowledge, you might then be motivated to purchase a non mass produced steamer.

I think a little 0-4-0 switcher would be the perfect RTR platform.
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willjordan
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Production on Demand

Post by willjordan »

When I decided some time ago about the protype that I wanted to model the first thing I checked was whether anyone had drivers that met my prototype specs. I want to build an 2-6-2T that had 44" drivers, a common standard for logging rod engines.

In 1.5" scale, this worked out to 5.5" drivers. But after searching through all of the sources I could find, the closest I could find was a 6" driver. Likewise, most of the Heislers I know have 36" drivers. The only Heisler drivers I could find were larger.

Several years ago, I talked with Clarke Simms about the industry and he thought that one option in the future would be production of drivers using CNC equipment. Rather than starting with casting, a bottleneck in any production, he foresaw using CNC equipment to create the drivers from plain blanks, doing the spokes and counterweights with a CNC mill.

Later, I visited Bob Pederson at Railroad Warehouse. He was using a CNC bridgeport to do much of the finish work on his Mikado drivers for an engine he was building. As we talked, the mill was doing all of the facing on the driver, including shaping the counterweight.

And Rogers-Cooke does custom frames for Allen Models engines.

And there are a number of shops that effectively use CNC to turn out wheels for freight cars and diesels.

So maybe the answer is developing a plan library with CAD plans that can easily be converted to CNC code, with a small royalty for the plan creator and for the library. Then all we need is live steam friendly shops, or folks with CNC capability that can crank out a job one engine at a time.

I have a website with FTP capability that could be used for such a library. But I know that there would be a fair amount of work in setting it up. As far as pricing goes, the license/royalty would have to be low enough to be realtively paineless, but fair to the contributors.

Any comments?
grace & peace
will

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willjordan
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Re: The main reason that I think it would work is.....

Post by willjordan »

...If there was a cost effective RTR steam engine that was striped down for sale with dress up's availiable you would probably make a good run if marketed correctly. The only downfall to owning one of these engines is that those rivit counters would bash the hell out of you which is this hobbies major downfall anyway. ...

I divide the hobby into three categories of steam engines, critters than don't follow any standard engine but have steam power (UnkaJesse's newbie fals into this caegory), fine scale models, and operating models (my favorites).

UnkaJesse's newbie is a great example of a steam critter. It has steam power, but is mechaically quite simple. It's a good starter into steam, but, alas, it doesn't look like any steam engine I remember. Some of these critters are quite a bit of fun, have great pulling power, and have the novelty of looking like the child of a samovar and a flatcar.

Fine scale models have all of the bells and whistles and rivets, and often suffer from problems with the "fiddly bits." Not everything scales down appropriately. But the look pretty and some run quite well, but the have a certain fragility.

My preference is for a good operating model. The LE 0-4-0 seems to fit this category. While not a rod engine, the CliShay also falls into this category -- it doesn't rigorously follow a particular prototype, but is evocative of a class of engines. I think of engines that run well, but have only the accessories and fittings necessary for good operation. You'll find axle pumps on these, but not cross compound air compressors. Whistles may be disguised as air tanks, but electricty will come from a battery, not a dynamo.

I tell folks our locomotives are not toys, but small pieces of industrial equipment, with a need to be built for safety and durability.

The joy of operating a good operating model is the ability to get a lot of running in without much more than routine maintenance. And a first locomotive needs to be one that has a high satsfaction factor and a low risk of frustration.

I was blessed with being a member of a club with five steamrs that saw lots of duty hauling passengers. We'd fore up at 10:00am, open the gates at 11:00, and haul passengers until 5:00pm. Unless the weather was really bad, we had a steamer running every Saturday, Sunday, and Holiday from Easter through mid-October. I got as much throttle time as I wanted, especially since I was willing to work in poor weather. Our large standard guage engines were a Hudson and a Northern. We also had a LE Mogul. And we had 2 4"scale Wrens. Each engine was different, but all were able to run for a full run day.

Good operating models, without much in the way of fiddly bits, were a joy to run.

And we need to see more of these good operating models. I see so many folks that start out to build a mainline Pacific and never finish it. I'm starting small with my Falk, and will work my way up to a large logging engine. I have no need to pull a 100 car train, nor do I need to run at 80 scale mph.

Just a bit of rambling. Hope that it continues the discussion.
grace & peace
will

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mrb37211
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Re: Production on Demand

Post by mrb37211 »

Several years ago, I talked with Clarke Simms about the industry and he thought that one option in the future would be production of drivers using CNC equipment. Rather than starting with casting, a bottleneck in any production, he foresaw using CNC equipment to create the drivers from plain blanks, doing the spokes and counterweights with a CNC mill.

A year or two ago, at a Mid-South meet, someone was showing off a driver pattern carved from aluminum using CNC. Nice looking. He had made the counterweight and the flange as individual components.

Charles
GeorgeGaskill

I would think that CNC water jet ...

Post by GeorgeGaskill »

would be the best method for things like drivers and frames, with machining followup for the critical surfaces. In fact, water jet might be best for anything that has to be cut from plate as an end mill is not the world's best cutting tool. The wj-cut pieces could then be treated as castings. Small parts could be entirely made on a milling machine but larger ones would need fixtures. This would not be a trivial project, even for a small, simple locomotive.
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gwrdriver
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Looong rivet-counting rant - beware . . . . . . .

Post by gwrdriver »

The only downfall to owning one of these engines is that those rivit counters would bash the hell out of you which is this hobbies major downfall anyway.

First off, all of you who might also feel this way have no one but yourselves to blame. If these "rivet-counter" folks (or anyone else) continue to cause you problems it's because you haven't told them where to get off! Maybe you have made a decision, to tolerate this bad treatment in trade for a little bit of comraderie, or that "brotherhood" (as in Brotherhood of L/S) we've always heard so much about. But if you think about it for a little bit, people who behave like this aren't your "brothers", and they're not your friends. All they are are people who want to boost their own egos by breaking down yours so the best thing you can do for yourself is to put some distance between you and them ASAP.
The best way to do that of course is to tell them, in no uncertain terms, where to get off. I've found the ruder and more abrupt your phraseology the further away they will withdraw and it makes for a win-win situation. This sounds brutal, but think about it, when you're not forced to (as in wife, boss, mother-in-law, etc) where else in life do you tolerate people who nag, pester, and criticize, you about your personal choices, none of which are any of their concern? It's time to show 'em the exit door.

But let me give you another perspective, . . . then I want you to answer a question please. The other perspective is, as probably a "rivet-counter" (depending upon your definition), I've never criticized anyone for not building the way I would. What I have not done (and won't ever so) is offer up the requisite polite ooohs and ahhhhs over a job that I feel is simply mediocre, or poorly done, or doesn't look the least bit like any locomotive that ever rode the rails, but that is NOT the same as critizing. What I would be guilty of is reserving compliment and admiration for that which I think deserves compliment and it's my right to reserve compliment. But so what if I reserve compliment? If the project makes you happy what do you care what I or anyone else thinks? As long as you DO care more about what other people think than what you think of yourself you will continue to be at the mercy of so-called "rivet counters" and anyone else who needs something to criticize.

In contrast to yours, it's my opinion that one of the downfalls of the hobby is the now majority of people who accept mediocrity, and poor workmanship, and careless attention to detail, as the norm and who really don't know what good workmanship is, and then have the gall to occasionally call it "museum quality", and some people in fact aren't really comfortable unless a project IS mediocre. These are the people who when faced with a truly great piece of work would rather choke to death than compliment work they aren't capable of. Exaggeration? Not at all, I see this happen all the time. There are many fields these days where the general population no longer has any idea of what genuinely good design or workmanship is.

Another part of my perspective is that over the years there have been untold numbers of live steamers who have had no qualms or hesitancy whatsoever about telling me where I went wrong and how stoopud I was (yes stupid) to bother with adding all that unecessary detail and wasting time brightening it up here or filing the edges square there. They have had no hesitancy whatsoever, NONE, and a few years ago after absorbing about as much of that as I figured I wanted to tolerate, and finially realizing that these weren't my friends or even people I wanted to be around, and I started telling people where they could get off and lo and behold the criticism stopped. The point is, once again, if you allow people to keep on with behavior that causes you problems they WILL continue.

Now, my question is . . . Just what is a rivet counter, and what is so awful about being one anyway, if that's what I want to do?
GWRdriver
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crackchecker
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Re: Looong rivet-counting rant - beware . . . . . . .

Post by crackchecker »

Ok, First off I want to apologize for lumping many into a catagory. I love nothing more than to admire a piece of equipment someone has taken time to detail up and shine up. In that case I too would be self considered a rivit counter.

You described best the kind of people that I tend to recieve the most greef from. I and those who purchase a steam RTR engine that was nothing special, but a good runner. And agree that they need to be put in their place. and I have on occation. I have found that some of these people didn't even build their own engines, Then in fact bought the engines RTR from someone else (steam or diesel) or just had to fix something small and now have good looking engine that someone else built that they judge others against.

In my mind I compare these people to some rich guy that can buy a fancy $250,000 car. Know nothing about how it works, yet talk down to a guy that is rebuilding a nice Mustang.

First off, all of you who might also feel this way have no one but yourselves to blame. If these "rivet-counter" folks (or anyone else) continue to cause you problems it's because you haven't told them where to get off! Maybe you have made a decision, to tolerate this bad treatment in trade for a little bit of comraderie, or that "brotherhood" (as in Brotherhood of L/S) we've always heard so much about. But if you think about it for a little bit, people who behave like this aren't your "brothers", and they're not your friends. All they are are people who want to boost their own egos by breaking down yours so the best thing you can do for yourself is to put some distance between you and them ASAP.
The best way to do that of course is to tell them, in no uncertain terms, where to get off. I've found the ruder and more abrupt your phraseology the further away they will withdraw and it makes for a win-win situation. This sounds brutal, but think about it, when you're not forced to (as in wife, boss, mother-in-law, etc) where else in life do you tolerate people who nag, pester, and criticize, you about your personal choices, none of which are any of their concern? It's time to show 'em the exit door.

But let me give you another perspective, . . . then I want you to answer a question please. The other perspective is, as probably a "rivet-counter" (depending upon your definition), I've never criticized anyone for not building the way I would. What I have not done (and won't ever so) is offer up the requisite polite ooohs and ahhhhs over a job that I feel is simply mediocre, or poorly done, or doesn't look the least bit like any locomotive that ever rode the rails, but that is NOT the same as critizing. What I would be guilty of is reserving compliment and admiration for that which I think deserves compliment and it's my right to reserve compliment. But so what if I reserve compliment? If the project makes you happy what do you care what I or anyone else thinks? As long as you DO care more about what other people think than what you think of yourself you will continue to be at the mercy of so-called "rivet counters" and anyone else who needs something to criticize.

In contrast to yours, it's my opinion that one of the downfalls of the hobby is the now majority of people who accept mediocrity, and poor workmanship, and careless attention to detail, as the norm and who really don't know what good workmanship is, and then have the gall to occasionally call it "museum quality", and some people in fact aren't really comfortable unless a project IS mediocre. These are the people who when faced with a truly great piece of work would rather choke to death than compliment work they aren't capable of. Exaggeration? Not at all, I see this happen all the time. There are many fields these days where the general population no longer has any idea of what genuinely good design or workmanship is.

Another part of my perspective is that over the years there have been untold numbers of live steamers who have had no qualms or hesitancy whatsoever about telling me where I went wrong and how stoopud I was (yes stupid) to bother with adding all that unecessary detail and wasting time brightening it up here or filing the edges square there. They have had no hesitancy whatsoever, NONE, and a few years ago after absorbing about as much of that as I figured I wanted to tolerate, and finially realizing that these weren't my friends or even people I wanted to be around, and I started telling people where they could get off and lo and behold the criticism stopped. The point is, once again, if you allow people to keep on with behavior that causes you problems they WILL continue.

Now, my question is . . . Just what is a rivet counter, and what is so awful about being one anyway, if that's what I want to do?
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gwrdriver
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Re: Looong rivet-counting rant - beware . . . . . . .

Post by gwrdriver »

I compare these people to some rich guy that can buy a fancy $250,000 car. Know nothing about how it works, yet talk down to a guy that is rebuilding a nice Mustang.
Life's bitch ain't it. You just can't let the turkeys break you down and if it makes you happy, or you've done the best you can, that's all that matters.
GWRdriver
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UnkaJesse
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Re: Massproduction of steamengines

Post by UnkaJesse »

Adam et al, let us not forget that Baldwyn (and probably others) had a store house full of "standard" parts that they used interchangably amongst many of their products. Of course many locos they made could not use all of the standard parts on each loco, but generaly, the system seemed to work very well in full scale.

Unka(Then there was that narrow gauge loco they made from the ground up including building the boiler, in 8 days. WOW!)Jesse
"The same hammer that breaks the glass, forges the steel" Russian proverb
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cbrew
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Re: Looong rivet-counting rant - beware . . . . . . .

Post by cbrew »

I compare these people to some rich guy that can buy a fancy $250,000 car. Know nothing about how it works, yet talk down to a guy that is rebuilding a nice Mustang.
Life's bitch ain't it. You just can't let the turkeys break you down and if it makes you happy, or you've done the best you can, that's all that matters.

Thats Right,
Just remember, they are the ones on the sidelines looking in, just wave as you go steaming by, and let the whistle sound LOUD AND PROUD!!!! Or Horn for the lawn mower guy, oh wait, diesels, [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/grin.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/laugh.gif"%20alt="[/img]

Hey get off my back; Diesels are good for pulling the steamers to the steaming bays
[img]/ubb/images/graemlins/grin.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/cool.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/wink.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/grin.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/laugh.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/crazy.gif"%20alt="[/img]
If it is not live steam. its not worth it.
apm
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Re: Massproduction of steamengines

Post by apm »

Wow, this turned into quite an interesting discussion. My real inspiration for this idea came from watching one of thes run http://www.omax.com/. After seeing the blonde describe everything I thought, Wow!. Even for the boilers this would be perfect. The only one I've ever constructed is the boiler for the clishay I'm building, and mine (contarary to the plans) is a vertical firetube boiler, which is a lot easier to make then a horizontal boiler. None the less I was thinking this would be perfect. I think one could cut out most all of the parts with it (a very time consuming project), including tubesheets and everything, so a good welder would only need to come along and weld it.

As for having a project stored on files. I'm not too adversed in this area. I currently am finishing a school internship at a local shop, and next week start working at a shop that will hopefully teach me some programing and the likes, but the one thing I can say is with the older 1980's vintage machines at the shop I'm at currently you constantally have to fiddle with them, and edit programming. But still watching those Haas's, and Fadals make chips, and the water jet make parts was pretty inspiring.

Adam
Marty_Knox
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Mass production of steam locomotives

Post by Marty_Knox »

This is a concept that has been tried in this country in several forms. Jim Gould tried it about 20 years ago with the Model Rails Mogul. Bill Van Brocklin and I worked on a design for an 0-4-0 - I still haven't completed the prototype after 20 years. See the thread from earlier this year on the Ridge Locomotive Works 0-4-0.
Gene Allen has been the most sucessful developing a line of "Modular" locomotives. He started with the Mogul, from which he developed the Ten-Wheeler, then the American, and finally the Consolidation. Railroad Supply did it with their B&O 0-4-0 and 0-4-0T that grew into their Mogul and Consolidation.

There aren't enough Live Steamers to give someone a return on the investment of developing a design, mass producing the parts, and offering a kit or ready to run locomotive. I thought I had a very workable design, but it would take 2 or 3 years to develop it so that I could sell parts or locomotives to any stage the customer wanted. I didn't have the money to live on while I did that. I took in work that would bring in money in the near term.

There are more succesful examples in England - MaxiTrack being one. Winson Engineering tried, ModelWorks is carrying on with some of the same designs.

Another problem is the "Wait" factor. I can't help but wonder how many more people would be in Live Steam if they could buy a locomotive when they wanted it - not have to wait two or more years to get one.
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