Massproduction of steamengines

[apm]

Today, I was at Eastec's machine tool show, and it got me wondering, with ultra modern CNC's and stuff, could anyone hypothetically be able to mass produce livesteamers in 1.5" scale, to say a base price of maybe $6000 for 0-4-0, and maybe somewhere around $20,000 for an 4-8-4 or something aroudn those prices. I was watching those machines run, and it got me thinking with something like a waterjet cutting system, a turning center, and a milling center, if someone was to really tool up, and go standardized parts. IE, every engine uses the same style or similar axels, drivers, bearings, siderods, braking systems, throttles, etc... Could this be done? So that one could stock parts cheap enough, and literally pump out 1000 axels? The idea being the only difference between a 0-4-0 and a 2-8-0 would be a larger frame, boiler, two sets of drivers, and a lead truck. With every other part being interchangable. Then sell the engines RTR, basic kits. Tender, Loco, Injector, Handpump, safety valve, and all the bare minimums. Then price in extra's like say a steam pump, headlight all as accessories. Does this sound possible. It to some extent is being done with Gas engines, why not steam? As one who's just getting his feet wet in machineships, I can say there is a big difference between in $$$ between the guy who wants 1 widget, and the guy who wants 3000 widgets. Anyone think this would be feasible?

Adam

[FredR]

Today, I was at Eastec's machine tool show, and it got me wondering, with ultra modern CNC's and stuff, could anyone hypothetically be able to mass produce livesteamers in 1.5" scale, to say a base price of maybe $6000 for 0-4-0, and maybe somewhere around $20,000 for an 4-8-4 or something aroudn those prices. I was watching those machines run, and it got me thinking with something like a waterjet cutting system, a turning center, and a milling center, if someone was to really tool up, and go standardized parts. IE, every engine uses the same style or similar axels, drivers, bearings, siderods, braking systems, throttles, etc... Could this be done? So that one could stock parts cheap enough, and literally pump out 1000 axels? The idea being the only difference between a 0-4-0 and a 2-8-0 would be a larger frame, boiler, two sets of drivers, and a lead truck. With every other part being interchangable. Then sell the engines RTR, basic kits. Tender, Loco, Injector, Handpump, safety valve, and all the bare minimums. Then price in extra's like say a steam pump, headlight all as accessories. Does this sound possible. It to some extent is being done with Gas engines, why not steam? As one who's just getting his feet wet in machineships, I can say there is a big difference between in $$$ between the guy who wants 1 widget, and the guy who wants 3000 widgets. Anyone think this would be feasible?

Adam

Yeah, it could probably be done. However, getting a machine shop that has all the equipement to do it is something else unless you happened to find one that is interested in steam. It would cost a hobbiest a fortune and probably be way above the price range you would like simply cause the guy wants to at least re-coop his expenses on the equipement. Yeah, it would be great to find a fully loaded shop that could do it. Plus, the setup of certain parts is time consuming and that drives cost as well. Some things just can't be automated like that I suppose.

Fred

[bcody]

The idea of building live steam engines with a CNC system just isn't going to work. The cost of programming spread over the limited number of end items would negate the savings many times over. It was mentioned to use standardized parts. Not going to work. We build individual miniatures of a specific locomotive because that is what rings our chime. We just arn't interested in a generic locomotive. A well known vendor of live steam kits, etc. offered an 0-4-0 RTR with tender for less than $10,000 awhile back. If I remember correctly they advertised that 20? had been sold. I travel around and haven't seen one on any track that I've been to. I spent last week-end at the Spring Meet of the Sacramento Valley Live Steamers and plan on leaving the 10th of June for a tour of tracks (Chula Vista, Riverside, Orange County and Los Angeles) in Southern California. I have run on tracks in Arizona, California, Washington state, Burnaby Canada, Florida, Tennessee, Nevada and Missouri so I do get around. Bill

[alanstepney]

Technically it is possible, but economically, no.

I was one of a team that considered this a few years ago, and even looked at having parts made in the Far East.

If you are talking about producing loco's by the thousand, or preferably tens or hundreds of thousands, then the price drops dramatically.

The numbers that this hobby could support just do not warrant it.

(But do let me know if you fancy buying 100,000 identical loco's as I have all the info to hand ! )

[mrb37211]

I'm extremely unlikely to buy 100,000 steam locos, but I would like to learn more!

More and more hobbiests are running replica diesels, either IC or battery powered. The reasons vary, and include things such as boiler inspection, fiddling before/after runs, time to build, cost to build, and on and on. The diesel is actually much more subject to mass production than is the steamer; in fact, that is partly how it displaced the steamer. And I believe some hobby suppliers are at least semi-mass producing them in the mid-four to lower-five digit price range.

Charles

[crackchecker]

That's funny. I was just in one of the many machine shops the Navy has on the base I work. Huge! It was about the size of a airport hanger. And all I could think of while I was getting a part modified for me was, Man just think of the things I could make in here! One particular lathe that the guy was working on had a 15" chuck. I'm sure there are larger, but that was the biggest I had seen. They had a pic on the wall taken back in the 50's, the shop had three times the equipment and all of it was manned. Can you imagine! Makes me sad thinking that some of that work is now oversea's.

[Fred_V]

a few years ago a guy in the UK did this and went under. i think all his parts are in Canada now and an attempt is being made to correct them. his problem turned out to be that the parts didn't fit together. the design tolerances, machine tolerances, operator setting up the tooling and locating the work piece all have to be right on or things don't fit.
as others have said it CAN be done but...
fred v

[Allen_from_CHT]

As most of you know, I sell the Maxitrak line from England, Their locos come in several styles, but share many similar components, just as suggested, they even come in choice of gauge (4-3/4 to 7-1/2). Maxitrak is also willing to build several variations of their "lil Jo" plantation loco (0-4-2, 2-4-0, 2-4-2, 2-6-0, 2-4-4Forney, tender and tank versions, etc) for a very reasonable price (less than $12K to start)....

My phone still doesn't ring off the wall with orders. I get just as many inquireys for the OS porter in 3-1/2" gauge. Midway's "whitcomb" gas/mech sold so well that the manufacturer has gone on to other things.

As some mentioned, you have to have a prototype that "rings their chimes", but we are also in a hobby that has guys who would spend 20 hours making a $20 part than spend the $$ (they call it fun)

I will say that Accucraft has made live steam almost dirt cheap in gauge 1 with their "Ruby" and variations (the Ruby is as cheap or cheaper than a Mamod), but that market is much larger than the ride on scales. Then again, I've also noticed that some guys still expect features and characteristics in their Ruby that are found in locos that cost twice as much.

I suppose it is possible for Madison Avenue to create a market where there isn't one (yet), but that would cost cubic $$ too.

[Blackadder]

This firm here in the UK Polly Engineering produces 5 inch G loco's in kit form, and very good they are,they fiit together ok a few are in regular service at our track ( in fact Andy Clarke ) is a member a currnent advert list on of the kits at £3700


just the normal thing I have not connected with the firm in any way I am only a cutomer of Bruce Enginneing not of Polly Enginneering



Stuart

[apm]

Like Crackchecker, I felt similar at Eastec, seeing all of those machines. All I could think of was what one person could possibly do with one of them. I think the trick would really be everything standard, you'd have to do a production run of 200 cylinder blocks all the same. Then when one wanted a different engine you'd just add and subtract drivers and lead trucks. Just as on modern cars, you may have a variety of models, but a Chevy pickup, and Car may both share the same airconditioning systems, power locks etc... As for the guy who'se stuff didn't fit, and if CNC can/can't do it, it definately can! If we can build millions of different lines of cars each year, CNC is up to the challenge mechanically. But financially speaking that is another thing. Who knows, with some of these modern day cad cam systems which can almost generate g-code from prints it may be a possibility of the near future. Just seeing one of those water jet cutters cutting parts made me think this would be perfect for frames. As for would people buy it, if it's quality was up there, and price was low, I think so. Look at all those people riding those butt ugly diseasels they aren't running them as it is fun rather running them as they are cheap. I think if Little Engines could have brought down the price of that 0-4-0 to $5000-6000 each, RTR or close to it, and then sold detail kits for an additional $2-3000 that would have made it look nice it may have worked a bit better. I think if one could sell Hudsons at about $10,000 RTR then you could really start making. By the way Alan, do you mind sharing some of your findings?

Adam

[GeorgeGaskill]

from the same problem that prototype steam locomotive production did; everybody wants something different. Even if you could produce an economical USRA Pacific, the market would mostly want something else. So it is impossible to achieve economies of scale even with automated production. Furthermore, boiler construction is outside the realm of automated manufacture and a major cost center in large scale locomotives.

Never going to happen unless a big honcho of a machine tool manufacturer is a live steamer and has his Eastec/Westec demo machines setup producing locomotive parts. And even then you have the boiler issue.

[ehulshiz]

Glad You mentioned the Accucraft "RUBY". At less than $400.00, it's quite a bargain, and gets a lot more people into live steam directly from G scale electric trains. But there's more to it than just that. The Ruby and all its "Variants" comes to about six or eight (cosmetically) different lokies. Same drivers, cylinders, and boiler, but different sheetmetal, and leading/trailing trucks. Mass production works for Accucraft, I feel sure it could be made to work for 7+ locomotives. It sort of worked for Little Engines with their 0-4-0 switcher, (at 10 GRAND).
Speaking for myself, because of my limited skill, I would buy a generic lokie, or a set of finished cylinders, drivers, rods, and valve gear to gain time and feel more assured of a successful completion.