Massproduction of steamengines

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alanstepney
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Re: Massproduction of steamengines

Post by alanstepney »

Probably the most successful model locomotive producer is OS.
However, they are expensive, but also good quality.

Over here we had Winsons: a good idea but poorly executed and managed.
I saw much of the information about them, prior and during their liquidation, and it was really an example of poor management.
Modelworks has taken over where Winsons left off, but only time will tell how it works out.
Maxitrack and a couple of others ARE in that market, but all have their limitations.


However, one major problem with manufacture in the US / UK / Eurpoe / et al, is the high costs.
To keep the price down to what could appeal to the greatest numbers, means making either the whole thing or most of the parts in SE Asia or Asia.

That is only economic if one can place large orders. By "large" I mean buying and shipping by the container load. A 40ft container of, say drivers, is an awful lot!

The other problem is WHAT to make.
Any freelance design would be less popular than a recognised prototype and hence have lower sales.

If one is considering a model of a 12" scale loco, which one and should it be, US, UK, European origins?
All have their advantages and disadvantages and would attract the greatest numbers in their respective countries.

Yes, it would be possible, but it is not as easy (business-wise) as first appears.

I wont go into specifics as they group I worked with might, and I only said might, be going to bring out a limited edition of one model as a trial, and if that works, then expanding it to a range of models.
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FredR
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Re: Looong rivet-counting rant - beware . . . . . . .

Post by FredR »

Ok, First off I want to apologize for lumping many into a catagory. I love nothing more than to admire a piece of equipment someone has taken time to detail up and shine up. In that case I too would be self considered a rivit counter.

You described best the kind of people that I tend to recieve the most greef from. I and those who purchase a steam RTR engine that was nothing special, but a good runner. And agree that they need to be put in their place. and I have on occation. I have found that some of these people didn't even build their own engines, Then in fact bought the engines RTR from someone else (steam or diesel) or just had to fix something small and now have good looking engine that someone else built that they judge others against.

In my mind I compare these people to some rich guy that can buy a fancy $250,000 car. Know nothing about how it works, yet talk down to a guy that is rebuilding a nice Mustang.

I would rather pay $10,000 for a used steamer that has been taken care of than to buy one from 'some' suppliers. You end up with a lot better quality engine than one that was just slapped together with crappy machined parts and/or wrong parts like wrong gauge and such. Specially with castings not always as good as they were 10-20 years ago. Although, it's nice to see lost wax castings now days. The water jet cut parts like frames are a plus now days as well.

Fred
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gwrdriver
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Re: Massproduction of steamengines

Post by gwrdriver »

The other problem is WHAT to make.
The Pannier of course!! [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/grin.gif"%20alt="[/img]
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Bruce_Mowbray
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Re: Massproduction of steamengines

Post by Bruce_Mowbray »

Adam and others,
A few years back I started to design and build a locomotive that was almost entirely machined on my CNC equipment. The target price for the very simple 0-4-0 was $5,000. It was to be a bare bones loco that the builder was to customize by adding their own details. The cost of materials to build the locomotive was approximately $700. Well, I spent 3 months on the project full time. I got wheels, frames, some running gear made and most of the drawings finished. Time and funding ran out. I still believe one could make a mass produced steam engine if they have the time and money to get all of the CNC programs written and proved out. The first run of 20 engines would probably pay for the design and program development. Unfortunately, it could take a few years to make back your initial investment.
Bruce Mowbray
Springville & Southern RR
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SteveR
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Re: Massproduction of steamengines

Post by SteveR »

OK - it's almost 20 years later and with all the improvements in CAD/CAM and 3D printing, what has really changed?

SteveR
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LIALLEGHENY
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Re: Massproduction of steamengines

Post by LIALLEGHENY »

Not much has changed...same isssues still apply.

Nyle
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Adirondack
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Re: Massproduction of steamengines

Post by Adirondack »

SteveR wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:41 pm OK - it's almost 20 years later and with all the improvements in CAD/CAM and 3D printing, what has really changed?

SteveR
What has changed is the actual ability to bring an idea like this to fruition from a technical standpoint. Almost 90% of what I do is done using modern CNC processes, and it is most certainly feasible.

What hasn't changed is the collective of curmudgeons known as "live steamers" that would chase anyone away willing to give it a shot.

There are certainly enough USRA designs that could be used to cover a broad span of railroad prototypes with only minor detail differences. But what do I know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USRA_0-6-0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USRA_Light_Pacific

https://steamlocomotive.com/types/usra/

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Berkman
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Re: Massproduction of steamengines

Post by Berkman »

The problem is that everyone wants a different locomotive. I'd say the closest to this approach is Godshall and his H10s, or maybe back in the day when Roger goldman tried to offer the chassis on air engines.

Even so, the machining is only part of the process, with lots of fitting, piping, etc that all still must be done without CNC.

Wasn't there a group making 10 USRA heavy mikados?
If you want to make a new locomotive design, it will be lots of time making patterns, castings, etc before you even get to CNC programming.
apm
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Re: Massproduction of steamengines

Post by apm »

Amazing to see an old thread rise from the dead but since the original post it seems like it has happened in England. Traction World is one of the first that come to mind and isn't Maxitrax or someone doing locomotives?
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AnthonyDuarte
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Re: Massproduction of steamengines

Post by AnthonyDuarte »

The prices of materials, machinery, shop space, and labor have all gone up, but the demand has not.
Of course it's doable (the initial post's proposition), but without the demand for hundreds or thousands of look-alike steam locomotives it's just not practical. At a higher price point it becomes more feasible, but then you also reduce the size of your potential customer base.

As apm mentioned, Traction World is essentially doing this with traction engines at a much higher price than what was proposed here, and locomotives are quite a bit more complicated than tractors. They seem to have found that sweet spot between pricing vs demand to make it work, but for a locomotive that price point will inevitably be high enough that the customer base quickly becomes unsustainable.

I looked pretty seriously into making USRA kits in 1" with the same thought as Adirondack, but I found you can't actually get more than one locomotive out of the same bucket of parts. The most similar are the 0-6-0 and 0-8-0. You'd get the same drivers, valve gear, tender, and maybe cylinders (don't remember off the top of my head), but even then you're looking at a lot more than just detail differences. All the bigger USRA designs are very different from each other.

Something people don't take into consideration when flirting with these ideas is the development. Any idea how long it takes to draw a complete locomotive in CAD? It's hundreds of hours. For something like an articulated engine it could easily approach 1000 hours. Programming, setting up the machines, and machining times takes longer than the time spent drawing the parts in CAD, especially if castings are involved, because then you also have to make drawings for the patterns to make the castings. Setting up a CNC machine is no walk in the park either, especially the fancy multi-axis mill/turn centers. It can take a day or more to get a program dialed so that the parts come out right depending on the complexity of the part and the operations involved. I think there's this impression that you just clamp in some material, load a picture of the part, hit start and voila a finished perfect part comes out. But that could not be further from the truth. The time and investment in work holding becomes vastly greater with high volumes. At Boston Scientific we spent several months developing processes that would get us from 800 parts a week to 1500 parts a week. For one single part. Mass production is not trivial.

The demand for that level of mass production just isn't there. I even wrestle with this issue with Eccentric Engineer at much lower volumes and much simpler items than a complete locomotive. It's very difficult to choose products that I know will sell enough volume to make it worth the development and production time, and even then I often break even. If there's enough setbacks in production it's pretty easy to lose money.

Godshall has done it best with his H10's. For that to work it had to be a simple design of a very popular prototype, and the H10 is exactly that.

The only engine I could see being as successful as the H10's is the Southern Pacific S-12/14 0-6-0's. Simple and popular design with enough variation for people to feel like they have a unique locomotive. With two different driver sizes you could also include the S-10 class.

Anthony
Berkman
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Re: Massproduction of steamengines

Post by Berkman »

I think it's a bit moot point, but like allen, you could use many of the same castings for a 2-6-0, 4-6-0, 2-8-0, 4-4-0 etc.
Or LE / RRSC with mostly the same parts used for 0-4-0, 0-6-0, 2-6-0, 2-8-0, 2-10-0. I know at least one 4-6-0 has been built from LE modern 2-6-0 parts as well. All 7 inch drivers, same basic VG setup, same domes, cylinders etc.
that being said, I don't see it ever really being practical unless a much larger demand for locomotives somehow arises.
Don't forget shipping costs. EE can ship injectors in very small package, can't do that with a RTR chassis or locomotive.
apm
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Re: Massproduction of steamengines

Post by apm »

Maxitrak is selling a 7-1/4" Forney for about $17,000 https://maxitrak.com/locomotive-item/7-14-inch-forney. Last I knew I thought most machine shops need to be about $100/hr it seems these day to cover all costs , even if we assume that they get their materials for free which on a copper boiler we know isn't the case that only leaves them with about 170hrs to build the whole locomotive!

One way we know they skimp a little bit is to get the end user to do the final assembly but 170 total hrs to make a live steam locomotive seems impressive. It's a lot better than I can do in my shop. Anyone think I am off on my numbers? Maybe British ships work for a lot less? Even if they're at $75/hr once they buy their materials I doubt they have more than 170hrs left in the budget.
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