Number of fire-ups for a steam locomotive?

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Benjamin Maggi
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Number of fire-ups for a steam locomotive?

Post by Benjamin Maggi »

I believe I read somewhere that one of the limiting factors on full size steam locomotives is the number of fire-ups that can be performed on a boiler before it needs to be inspected. Because firing up (and cooling down) a boiler creates stresses on the boiler which would lead to problems, railroads, preferred to let the boilers sit with small fires overnight and reduce the stresses of the temperature changes.

If there is a set Federal number of fire-ups allowed on a full size boiler, could someone point me to the regulation discussing it? And what is the number?

Thanks.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Number of fire-ups for a steam locomotive?

Post by Bill Shields »

back in a millennium before green house gases were a concern.... :mrgreen:
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Fender
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Re: Number of fire-ups for a steam locomotive?

Post by Fender »

Interesting question. In full-size practice, boilers stayed hot almost continuously. Back in the day, a mainline steam locomotive typically stayed hot until a monthly boiler washdown was required. Then, after four years service, the boiler was rebuilt with new flues and tubes, and possibly new firebox sheets. This schedule was per ICC rules.
What matters now for regulation purposes is the number of days there is a fire in the boiler, until (I believe) 1472 service days, or a certain number of years, before a major inspection and renewal. So, the typical boiler goes through more firing cycles in today’s usage.

What is likely more important for live steam boilers than the number of steamup cycles is how clean (free of scale and rust) they are kept, and how quickly the boiler is brought up to temperature. Firing it up quickly will put more stress on the components than a more leisurely steamup.

My 2 cents.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Number of fire-ups for a steam locomotive?

Post by Bill Shields »

as you say -> rusted fire tubes get most of our steel boilers.

50+ years out of an all copper boiler is not unusual....I know of a couple that are pushing 80....
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Steam Engine Dan
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Re: Number of fire-ups for a steam locomotive?

Post by Steam Engine Dan »

Benjamin Maggi wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:34 pm I believe I read somewhere that one of the limiting factors on full size steam locomotives is the number of fire-ups that can be performed on a boiler before it needs to be inspected. Because firing up (and cooling down) a boiler creates stresses on the boiler which would lead to problems, railroads, preferred to let the boilers sit with small fires overnight and reduce the stresses of the temperature changes.

If there is a set Federal number of fire-ups allowed on a full size boiler, could someone point me to the regulation discussing it? And what is the number?

Thanks.
previous comment withdrawn
Last edited by Steam Engine Dan on Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
pat1027
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Re: Number of fire-ups for a steam locomotive?

Post by pat1027 »

Benjamin Maggi wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:34 pm If there is a set Federal number of fire-ups allowed on a full size boiler, could someone point me to the regulation discussing it? And what is the number?
Inspections are based on service days. A service day being any day when the boiler is above atmospheric pressure. By the regulation you could fire a full size locomotive up 1,472 times over the course of 15 years before the 1,472 day inspection was required.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/s ... I/part-230
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Benjamin Maggi
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Re: Number of fire-ups for a steam locomotive?

Post by Benjamin Maggi »

I am specifically asking about full size (not model) boilers for a presentation I am giving. I assumed that people here would know the rules regarding full size steam boilers, hence my question.

I thought I heard a rule that full size boilers could only be fired up so many times before it required recertification. However, based on Fender's response above it sounds like it is the number of days that a boiler is fired up.
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Marty_Knox
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Re: Number of fire-ups for a steam locomotive?

Post by Marty_Knox »

It is the number of service days. The regulation is in the Code of Federal Regulations - CFR 49:230. You should be able to find it online.
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Re: Number of fire-ups for a steam locomotive?

Post by pat1027 »

The link above will take you to the electronic CFR Part 230 Steam Locomotive Inspection and Maintenance Standards. 230.8 Definitions defines a service day. 230.13 through 230.17 detail the inspection requirements. They include links to the appendix listing items requiring inspection.

As a service day is defined, fire the locomotive up and keep it under steam for 10 days it's 10 service days. Fire it up on 10 separate occasions one day each it's also 10 service days.
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Re: Number of fire-ups for a steam locomotive?

Post by Marty_Knox »

Steam Engine Dan wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:29 am
ben, what happens with the full size doesn't always apply to our scale. remember our boilers are built to a 10 times safety factor where the full size boiler is only built to 4 times safety factor.

Dan, most boilers are not built to a factor of safety of 10. Some components may come out to that, more common is a factor of safety around 6 or 7.
But sometimes things are overlooked and end up with a factor of safety less than 4. The focus on boilers in generally a good thing, but I constantly remind people we don't need to blow up a boiler to get hurt in this hobby. We should be thinking about safety across the board.
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Dick_Morris
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Re: Number of fire-ups for a steam locomotive?

Post by Dick_Morris »

1472 hours is for locomotives covered by the FRA regulation. For locomotives not regulated by the FRA, state rules apply. A railroad not connected to the general rail system *may* only be covered by state boiler regulations.
Glenn Brooks
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Re: Number of fire-ups for a steam locomotive?

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Just a side note here. Perhaps of interest to those who pursue boiler regulations. FRA regulations were a subject of big discussion back in the 20’s (1920s), when thousands of amusement parks abounded throughout the land, and all of them had some form of railroad amusement ride. The amusement industry followed the class 1 railroad industry and eventually decided to standardize on 24” gauge amusement trains to lower the cost of parts and make common items, such as couplers, wheels, axles, and even coaches interchangeable, and more accessible.

This same group also lobbied the federal govt to exempt 24” gauge and under from federal inspection and regulation. Hence the Rule that 24” gage park trains and the like and under exempt from FRA oversite. Small boilers, including hobby boilers also fall under this provision.

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