Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

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bobrauper
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Location: Tempe, AZ.

Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by bobrauper »

Hi folks,
Well, once again Mr. Shields has put his finger on the issue with the tank and regulator output. I do have a fork truck tank that came with the burner system. It has a fitting on it that does NOT match the QCC fittings on my Pacific's vaporized rosebud burner system that uses BBQ tanks and a 30 gallon horizontal tank. So, we have a specialty fitting on the fork truck tank that does NOT match anything else in the non-commercial world. So, now I need to find a regulator/hose assembly that will fit the fork truck tank. ALSO, here's a thought, 100 + PSI pressure (temperature dependent) will be running through hoses between cars. Enter: Derailment... As I look at the entire burner system from start to finish, some concerns emerge regarding hose connections between cars. Yes, we have safety chains and steel couplers... But, if a hose should somehow fail, and a 100 + PSI stream of liquid propane is let loose...! Propane expands 240% when it converts from liquid to a vapor, and I've got a red hot burner close by-hummm. Time to think through the whole system, not just the regulator elements. Thank you all for your inputs, it's giving me plenty of food for thought. I'm beginning to "cool" off regarding the true liquid delivery system.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by Bill Shields »

It is called a flow limiting check valve.

There is one built into the discharge of every BBQ vapor distributing tank ..probably in the fork truck tanks also.

Break a line and you will get a quick spurt of liquid and the check should close...put one just before the needle valve -> I would 🤪

However if you happen to be sitting on top of it at the time of failure with a lit burner -> then you better be wearing kevlar undies.

Is the advantage of the low pressure system.

Vapor from tank to rear of tender, where there is connection, away from flame. In my case this is a quick connect rated for propane..big and ugly but safe. Could use a screw on fitting, but since I need to disconnect the tank car to use the club turntable, convenience is a factor.

Pipe to front of tender where there is needle valve and very controlled flow and pressure to burners, along with a quarter turn shut off valve.

High pressure hose and screw on fittings to loco (good for 2000 psi).

I never use knuckle couplers between tender and tank car ..always a link that has stout vertical pins with some sort of cross pin to keep them from coming out. Again, since I need to disconnect the tank car, I use one of these push the button ball detent pins with a T handle on top. Ugly as sin...

Not to say that a knuckle coupler and chains are not safe...but remember that I also run a 3/4" propane loco, where knuckle couplers are very much not my favorite.

And yes..I used to work for an oil company and have the souvenir Red Adair baseball cap they gave me...
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
Bob D.
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by Bob D. »

That regulator I linked, the 3-5gph rating is max. 0-100psi adjustment. Its not delivering 5gph at 3psi. As for tank setup it is how the siphon tube below the valve is setup that determines if it is liquid or vapor delivery. Some liquid tanks are intended to be on their side, others are for vertical mounting. The industrial tanks all have a check in the valve. They won't dispense if the valve is open and a fitting not attached. They will dispense if the fitting is not fully seated…. But that is a small leak not a tank dump. The hand screw fittings are common, just not what you see in the BBQ world. I think for your burner your looking at a small supply line diameter. I'd try running your burner on vapor and see what it does. You may well have enough BTU's. Ultimately either setup is burning vapor not liquid…
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bobrauper
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by bobrauper »

Hi Folks (Bill S. and Bob D.)
Ok, so unless someone (soon) tells me they have exact knowledge of my single burner liquid system, I'm going to pivot to a "standard" slotted tube or rosebud design with vaporized propane at the 0-5 psi range. I can run my Pacific on less than 3 psi, so the Chloe will certainly not require more than that. I have slotted tube burner system prints designed by Kenneth Schroeder (April 7, 2001 print #62) that I can use,(courtesy of John Lovely initially and then Allen Models of Nevada a day ago), if I wish to go slotted tube. If I choose rosebuds, then I have LocoParts and Benji burners to choose from. I'm on familiar turf there. Sooooo, I'm thinking I'm nearing the end of the "Big Quest" regarding this liquid propane burner system. To all of you who have taken time out of your day to provide me suggestions and direction, THANK YOU ONE AND ALL!
ccvstmr
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by ccvstmr »

Bob...there's nothing wrong with a liquid propane burner system...as long as all considerations are addressed. As noted, most factory vehicles (fork trucks in particular), if they're not battery, they're most likely liquid propane. BUT...the fuel cylinders are designed for the liquid source application...AND...the liquid propane is mixed with air to produce a fuel/air mixture suitable for use in an internal combustion engine. As such, fuel pressure regulators for that application do exist.

Would think you'd do yourself a favor by sticking with the slotted cap burners. Over the years, there have been many slotted tube burners built and explained. However in my experience, those typically run at higher fuel pressures. Have followed such a loco/burner and could smell his trail of propane. Not cool! Thankfully, by that time, the fuel was diluted enough to NOT support combustion. Such burners have to run at higher pressure. The total open area of the tube slots needs to be overcome to sustain combustion.

Slotted cap are not what you might think. There's a considerably smaller orifice at the bottom of the rosebud burner...with horizontal openings for the primary air source. Fuel and air are mixed and burn outside the slotted cap...which is where secondary air is used to support combustion.

Like anything else with various types of fuels...be smart. If you're not sure...just ask. Since you already have experience with slotted burners...go with what you're familiar with. Carl B.
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bobrauper
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by bobrauper »

Hello Carl,
Thank you for your input. I am leaning towards a vaporized burner design. After measuring the Chloe frame and rear tender deck, it appears that slotted tube burners, with requisite mixing tube provisions, will not fit underneath the Chole frame. This is due to the rear truck mounting system. It is apparent that the only truly feasible design will be with rosebud burners and an above frame mounted manifold. So at this time I am focusing my attention to exploring the cost and design details of that burner system. So now my question should be: Does anyone have a rosebud burner design for a Chloe....Smile!
Bob R.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by Bill Shields »

keep in mind where the air inlet must be for the rosebuds...on the 'common' design, this area is where the HEX is located on each burner.

https://locoparts.biz/products-category/burners/

basically, everything from the hex on the burner down -> needs to be near the mud ring level of the firebox.

you need to keep that 'air inlet' area OUT of the hot firebox 'combustion' area, so there needs to be a divider / air barrier plate above the 'nut' area, otherwise the burners will suck in combustion products....which...well...really sucks...

you cannot just run a vaporized gas manifold in and attach a bunch of burners -> and assume it is going to work.
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bobrauper
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by bobrauper »

Hello Bill,
Yes, to all of your comments above. I have LcooParts burners on my Pacific with a baffle installed as you describe above. Interestingly enough, my Winton Mogul uses Jeff's manifold and burners without a baffle plate. However, I only have 15 burners on that locomotive. Seems to run just fine....Thanks for all your input!
Bob R.
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cbrew
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by cbrew »

the primary reason i went with the tube hole burner was for the same reason, there was not enough room for proper spacing for the rose bud style burner with the syphon tubes in the fire box. i also had to figure out where to route the mixing tube, I am feeding the burner from the front. keep the forum posted
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bobrauper
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Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:20 pm
Location: Tempe, AZ.

Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by bobrauper »

Hello folks,
Thank you ALL for your continuing input. I think that we are at the point where I know what I will do now. I'll just need to develop BTU requirements and size the rosebud system accordingly. I've got two great suppliers (LocoParts and Bengie) that I can choose from, so who could ask for more....!
Bob R.
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NP317
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by NP317 »

Bob:
'Delighted to hear that you are part of the Maricopa Live Steamers, and already have steamer experience.
And even better that you gathered the info you need to define your design direction.
I look forward to learning what you finally fabricate.

Good Steaming,
RussN
bobrauper
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by bobrauper »

Hello Russ N.
Yes, I built the L.E. Pacific and the Winton Mogul. Took me 30 years on the Pacific - Life got in the way... Didn't fabricate and weld either of the boilers though. That's Marty's job....Smile!
Bob R.
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