Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

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bobrauper
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Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by bobrauper »

Hi Folks,
Our club was donated a partially completed Chloe. I offered to finish the locomotive, and discovered that instead of the normal rosebud type of vaporized gas burner, I had a liquid burner. That is to say, the system was to use liquid propane right up the the expansion chamber on a single tube slotted burner. The burner tube is 7/8" in dia. and 5" long. Slots are cut on the bottom facing down into a refractory coated pan (approx. 6" square x 2" deep). There is no secondary air as the pan is sealed against the underside of the mud ring. There is a expansion chamber on the front of the burner tube that is about 2" long to allow the liquid propane to expand 240%, changing into a gas as it enters the burner tube. There is a very small needle valve on the piping from the propane bottle that controls the amount of liquid propane that is admitted into the expansion chamber. Ignition is through an embedded Piezoelectric starter in the wall of the burner box. That much is clear to me from what I have in hand. My questions to all of you: 1. What regulator do I need for such a system and what pressure should it deliver? 2. Will it make enough heat to produce steam in an Allen Chloe in 2-1/2" scale? The donner of the locomotive has passed and in the one conversation I had with him, told me he had used the burner previously in a locomotive and it had more than enough heat for that small of a firebox. Have any of you used such a system before, and can you answer my questions and provide guidance for those hidden issues I haven't mentioned?
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cbrew
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by cbrew »

interesting, I would like to see pictures of the setup.
but i cannot think of a reason to go this route. unless i am missing something, in order to keep propane in a liquid form would require tank pressure all the way to the needle valve.
If it is not live steam. its not worth it.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by Bill Shields »

cbrew wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:32 am interesting, I would like to see pictures of the setup.
but i cannot think of a reason to go this route. unless i am missing something, in order to keep propane in a liquid form would require tank pressure all the way to the needle valve.
and a bottle that specifically dispenses liquid -

are you sure it isn't an alcohol burner?
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
Rich_Carlstedt
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by Rich_Carlstedt »

That is a awesome burner.
I first saw it art the IBLS Meet in 2000 in Vancover BC.
The burner was built by John Ledford ( Hope I have it right) who is
a scientist from New Mexico. I wrote up a piece about it, so let me find it.

Rich
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by Rich_Carlstedt »

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Bill Shields
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by Bill Shields »

Ah...it's not one of those typical porous block burner setups?

A regulator that is liquid in liquid out at the very small flow involved is going to be a problem....you are basically looking for a liquid flow control valve

Basically a needle valve is going to be the practical initial solution with mark 1 eyeball to keep it adjusted based on demand and pressure variations on the inlet that will be ambient related.

As with any control system..the first question is "what is to be used for the reference"? Ledford appears to use a pressure gauge.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
bobrauper
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by bobrauper »

Hi folks,
Thank you for all your input. Mr. Shields, you have a good observation regarding the liquid flow to the burner. What I was told by the original owner/builder, was that the propane tank does not freeze up when you put liquid through the lines up to the burner. That's why he chose this system. This is NOT a ceramic block system at all. He is using an tubular expansion chamber in front of the 7/8" dia. x 6" long slotted burner tube (only 1 burner tube with slots pointing down into the refractory coated pan). Liquid comes from the propane tank mounted in a trailing car through a hose up to a very small needle valve. Valve has a small knurled knob 3/8" in dia. attached to the needle portion in the body of the valve. My problem is that I don't know what type of regulator to choose, as it delivers liquid propane to the needle valve and hence to the expansion chamber at the front of the burner tube. Also, what about pressure regulation as the tank empties, is there a line pressure change that I need to address? If no one has any experience with such a system. I'll scrap it and go with a traditional manifold / rosebud system that we all are currently using in our locomotives. Once again, Thank You All for your quick response to my query!
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Bill Shields
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by Bill Shields »

Freezing of the bottle was not really a concern, however the tank pressure will change a bit with ambient. As tank empties, generally speaking, internal pressure does not change until all of the liquid has boiled off and you are literally running on fumes.

This system may well work, but I would do a lot of "out on the bench" experimentation before putting it in a loco.

The long tube system works in furnaces, but runs from gaseous fuel and generally does not like being turned down unless the tube is configured to keep the mixed gas velocity constant along the length of tube... otherwise internal combustion (in the tube) can occur.

Nothing wrong with plowing new ground...but tried and true has its advantages.

My solution to freezing lines is to run the gaseous propane feed THROUGH the tender water in a copper line, where I have a needle valve that I use to control flame height.

Yes...one could argue that it causes the water temperature to decrease (which is true)...but everything in life is a compromise..and I have more steam than I know what to do with -> so I do not really care.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
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ChipsAhoy
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by ChipsAhoy »

Bob:
I visited with Chuck about this system and I know he said that he had drawings for it. I hope they didn't get away with another piece of equipment.
Scotty
PS
After I logged off I was thinking of where the plans may be and I realize I may have mispoken. He said that he had built it from plans, didn't nessarily mean he currently had plans.
(I would have just deleted this post, but there is apparently no option for that).
Last edited by ChipsAhoy on Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cbrew
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by cbrew »

this is the gas burner i built for my latest locomotive based off the Lindsay McDonnell write up.
I would not throw away that burner just yet, play with rejetting it
20220220_093444_rotated.jpg
Last edited by rmac on Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Photo Orientation
If it is not live steam. its not worth it.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by Bill Shields »

Cool...or hot?

Looks like a furnace burner...no reason to expect anything except success.

Does it turn down well?
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
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cbrew
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Re: Actual Liquid Propane Burner System

Post by cbrew »

Bill Shields wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:16 pm Cool...or hot?

Looks like a furnace burner...no reason to expect anything except success.

Does it turn down well?
it does, this picture was take running with the pressure needle just off the peg,
Running twin needle valves, one will set the "spot" fire and the other will be used to add heat as needed.
If it is not live steam. its not worth it.
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