Baldwin wood cab roof material?

[Greg_Lewis]

Does anyone know for certain what material was used on the roofs of Baldwin wood cabs from the early 20th century? Finding photos taken at a high angle is difficult and those I have found are not sharp enough to answer the question. I contacted the CSRM and they got me a photo of the roof of V&T #25 in Carson City and it clearly has a sheet metal covered roof. But this could have been added later. I also have a couple of reasonably sharp photos of V&T #26 and they suggest sheet metal but I can’t be sure. And, again, those were probably taken after some years in service when some shop foreman told the crew to cover the roof with metal. Some folks claim that the roofs were originally covered with canvas. I’d really like to find the definitive answer — no speculation. Does anyone know for sure? THANKS!

BTW, here's the photo of #25:

[Doug_Edwards]

Greg,

I can't speak specifically about Baldwin, but I can vouch that Climax Mfg. used a sheet metal folded seam roof in 1903. I would suspect that if Climax was using it, it is likely many of the others were using metal roofs also. Fwiw.

Regards,

Doug

[Greg_Lewis]

Thanks, Doug. Every clue helps. Logic says they'd use metal but logic doesn't always apply in real life. The photo above shows the metal just nailed on and not the neatest application. From what I can see in the other engine it looks to be the same. That's why I'm a little suspect that this was an "aftermarket" application (Roofs-R-Us).

[NP317]

Barney and Smith manufactured wooden railway coaches in the late 1800s that had wood roofs covered in soldered tin sheeting.
I've seen this sheeting exposed during restorations at the Northwest Railway Museum in Snoqualmie, WA.
They have restored several B&S coaches and replicated this roofing style, so I know it is documented there.
RussN

[SZuiderveen]

My friend John Tokar has a built from Baldwin blueprints cab on his SRRL #23, and it has a terne metal roof, as it is properly called.

Steve

[Greg_Lewis]

THANKS Steve!

[JBodenmann]

Hello My Friends
Locomotives often had what was called a Terne metal roof as mentioned earlier in this thread. The top photo we have here is from the Carson City Railroad museum. It Shows a newly completed Terne metal roof. Terne metal was killed iron with a tin coating that made it rust resistant, and very easy to solder the joints after they were folded together. Killed iron was a very soft form of iron. The second photo shows some .005" shim copper that was sheared and had the edges bent using the sheet metal brake. Some were bent up, and some down. Then they were fitted together on the cab rood and the bent edges were folded together and tucked under so as not to have any raw edges showing. The fussiest part was forming around the edges of the roof and over the triangular wood strip that forms the drip rail. There is a drain at each rear corner. The last snappy we have here shows the mostly competed cab roof with the joints soldered. As Terne metal had a tin coating I first tried circuit board silver coating liquid to simulate this. This did not work very well, and I was unable to get an even coating. So it was sprayed with rattle can silver and was then given a dusting of light gray VHT lacquer primer to dull it down a bit. Then it was given a light dusting of VHT dark gray primer to represent a little grime. This cab roof was a very fiddly but most enjoyable little puzzle and the end result was well worth it.
See you in the funny pages...
Jack

[Glenn Brooks]

Jack, how did you secure the copper plate to the roof top?

Thanks
Glenn

[Greg_Lewis]

Thanks for the additional info, Jack. Terne metal was a new one for me. I have discovered that it's still available as roofing material albeit not in the original formula, so if you're restoring your Victorian mansion, you're in luck!

[Rwilliams]

Sheet metal roofing was always a high end option a century or more ago. Whether the terne metal of iron or the even more expensive copper, the roof had a life expectancy of easily 40-50 years or more.

In the late 1920 era, my mother watched as a well to do neighbor installed a standing seam copper roof which was very rare for the local area. When first installed, the reflection from the new copper roof was incredible and could be seen for miles. Some of the local naysayers declared that it was a lightning magnet and would soon burn down taking the occupants with it. A century later, the copper roof is still in great condition but now sporting a rich apple green patina of age. The predicted lighting strike demise never did happen.

[mikeyg]

I see Jack beat me to the tinned roof comment!

I’ve been chatting with a professional museum resource regarding any number of Baldwin related items and through those conversations, some of this information emerged. I take no credit, just sharing. Not verbatim.

Baldwin cabs were made of painted ash or varnished walnut, the latter being more common in passenger locomotives which were typically more elegant in decoration. There are, however exceptions to this which are reasonably well documented.

I’ve also learned that as these cabs were rebuilt in railroad shops over time, construction methods and materials changed. As an example, I hear that V&T Genoa was rebuilt after a wreck and the cab was remade in a combination of the two woods, with walnut used for accent only. I’m also pretty sure that there were also far less sophisticated approaches to rebuilding cabs throughout various railroad shops!

Early roofs would have been tin sheets soldered together much like Jack did on the Disney American. (Noted above) Good full-size museum examples would be Sonoma, Eureka, Glenbrook and Empire. They were generally unpainted and left in natural gray.

Around 1882, Baldwin’s roof coverings and color changed from gray to a reddish brown with materials consisting of sheet metal or painted canvas over wood. The latter was used throughout the late 19th and into the early 20th century. But these methods and materials fell out of use as all steel cabs became more favored.

The transition to steel cabs began around 1895 and into about 1915.Baldwin built wood cabs up until WW1 if customers asked for them. But Class 1 railroads tended to specify steel by that time.

[Greg_Lewis]

Very interesting, Mike. In my case, I'm building Virginia & Truckee #26, which was built in 1907, well past the brass betsy era. I have a copy of the order sheet and all that's specified is: “Cab: Poplar, painted” and “With Ventilator, Cab middle, with.”

It's also interesting to note on the order: "Painting Style: 291 Engine Olive Green & Aluminum". The tender is spec'd the same. But just because that's on the order sheet doesn't mean it left the factory that way or stayed that way after the first visit to the shops. According to the Hope Ferrell book on the V&T, the engine was ordered due to an increase in traffic caused by the Tonopah Gold Rush, so more than likely this was a "hurry up and get 'er done" type of thing.