Wisconsin VF4D drivetrain
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Topics may include: antique park gauge train restoration, preservation, and history; building new grand scale equipment from scratch; large scale miniature railway construction, maintenance, and safe operation; fallen flags; track, gauge, and equipment standards; grand scale vendor offerings; and, compiling an on-line motive power roster.
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Wisconsin VF4D drivetrain
Hello All,
Recently purchased this 4 cylinder Wisconsin motor and hydrostatic (?) transmission. This is basically the same as the motor and drive chain for the old time MTC G-16.
After removing the rear bell housing, this is what I find. Can anyone confirm what this drive chain shown below actually is, and how to properly remove it from the motor shaft?
FYI, I have unbolted the housing and loosened the set screws on the rear collar around the shaft- but it only moved about 3/4”.
Wondering if I have to disassembly the hydraulic drive into pieces to get it off the shaft. If so does some kind of spring assembly fly out of the unit??
Thanks
Glenn
Recently purchased this 4 cylinder Wisconsin motor and hydrostatic (?) transmission. This is basically the same as the motor and drive chain for the old time MTC G-16.
After removing the rear bell housing, this is what I find. Can anyone confirm what this drive chain shown below actually is, and how to properly remove it from the motor shaft?
FYI, I have unbolted the housing and loosened the set screws on the rear collar around the shaft- but it only moved about 3/4”.
Wondering if I have to disassembly the hydraulic drive into pieces to get it off the shaft. If so does some kind of spring assembly fly out of the unit??
Thanks
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Re: Wisconsin VF4D drive chain
That appears to be a hydrodynamic coupling attached to the crankshaft. If you are trying to get it off the crank there may be a center bolt that threads into the crank that has to be removed. It's been many years since I last looked at that stuff, though, so my memory may be failing me.Glenn Brooks wrote: ↑Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:43 amRecently purchased this 4 cylinder Wisconsin motor and hydrostatic (?) transmission. This is basically the same as the motor and drive chain for the old time MTC G-16.
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Music isn’t at all difficult. All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!
Music isn’t at all difficult. All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!
Re: Wisconsin VF4D drive chain
Glenn, is that a 2-cycle, or flathead motor?
Interesting V-4, air cooled configuration. Be careful with that transmission and converter/hydrodynamic coupling, that may be just what you need to get the automatic transmission function you need for one of your builds.
Interesting V-4, air cooled configuration. Be careful with that transmission and converter/hydrodynamic coupling, that may be just what you need to get the automatic transmission function you need for one of your builds.
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- Posts: 2929
- Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
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Re: Wisconsin VF4D drive chain
Ryan,
Yes, Is a V-4, Wisconsin air cooled. Maybe a VF4D, although possibly a newer overhead cam model. Not sure how to recognize an overhead cam from the older V-4’s. I think I see a valve head inside the cylinder, through the spark plug hole. Don’t know what exactly that means....
Yes, indeed, Iam keeping it for the B-14 Rocketliner rebuild. Right now trying to get it off the motor...
I plan on making an adaptor plate for a 10” series wound DC traction motor. Should be a screaming, high torque puller!
Do you recognize this torque converter? Date stamped 03/89 on the case - must be a replacement as the body was built circa ‘59 or ‘60. Glenn
Yes, Is a V-4, Wisconsin air cooled. Maybe a VF4D, although possibly a newer overhead cam model. Not sure how to recognize an overhead cam from the older V-4’s. I think I see a valve head inside the cylinder, through the spark plug hole. Don’t know what exactly that means....
Yes, indeed, Iam keeping it for the B-14 Rocketliner rebuild. Right now trying to get it off the motor...
I plan on making an adaptor plate for a 10” series wound DC traction motor. Should be a screaming, high torque puller!
Do you recognize this torque converter? Date stamped 03/89 on the case - must be a replacement as the body was built circa ‘59 or ‘60. Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Re: Wisconsin VF4D drive chain
Judging from the posted pictures, it means that's a flat head engine. If it had overhead cams, the valves would be in the head, not the block. The head would have valve covers, much like an automobile engine, and there would be gearing from the block to the heads, driving the cams.
H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
Re: Wisconsin VF4D drivetrain
The only Wisconsin V-4s I've encountered over the years are flatheads.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Music isn’t at all difficult. All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!
Music isn’t at all difficult. All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!
Re: Wisconsin VF4D drivetrain
I noticed that, the construction of the head casting (cooling fins only-lack of a cam or rocker cover), leaves it to be 2-cycle or a flat head.
The view inside the plug hole looks like you can see the top of a valve, so its a flat head. Should make a bunch of torque!
Is the converter a 68 maybe, not an 89?
Edit:
Looks like these were a 60's to 70's Case/Bobcat skid steer engine, also used in generators hay bailers and other construction equipment. They are 92-108 cu/in (about 1.5 -1.77L displacement) depending what model it is.
25-35hp with a nice flat torque curve of anywhere from 35-51ft/lbs depending on what model it is. And this is probably "real" torque and horsepower not the bloated #'s of todays stuff.
Anymore #'s on the engine? They made these to run from LPG as well as gas so have a close look at the fuel system as well.
It doesn't look like the you can drop a dowel down the plug hole and turn the engine over to verify the stroke with the plug hole located over the valve.
The view inside the plug hole looks like you can see the top of a valve, so its a flat head. Should make a bunch of torque!
Is the converter a 68 maybe, not an 89?
Edit:
Looks like these were a 60's to 70's Case/Bobcat skid steer engine, also used in generators hay bailers and other construction equipment. They are 92-108 cu/in (about 1.5 -1.77L displacement) depending what model it is.
25-35hp with a nice flat torque curve of anywhere from 35-51ft/lbs depending on what model it is. And this is probably "real" torque and horsepower not the bloated #'s of todays stuff.
Anymore #'s on the engine? They made these to run from LPG as well as gas so have a close look at the fuel system as well.
It doesn't look like the you can drop a dowel down the plug hole and turn the engine over to verify the stroke with the plug hole located over the valve.
Last edited by rkcarguy on Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
- Location: Woodinville, Washington
Re: Wisconsin VF4D drivetrain
Iam not much of an engine guy, so flat head it is...
looks like an ‘89 date stamp on the housing: I’ve found the company that made these things: Formsprag, and have emailed them - but no reply yet.its actually cast on the unit- which I first thought was a component name. But a company with that name actually exists, so I guess they made it.
It appears to be a Sprag hydraulic clutch of some type. But still no joy on disassembly or internal components, except some generic descriptions of how Sprag bearings work.
I plan on waiting a day or so for a reply, then disassembling the rear torsion plate to see what happens.
Edit: Ryan, just saw your update. Yes, indeed these seem to have been quite popular for small Ag and construction equipment, also in generators. Talked to a guy yesterday with an Illinois steam museum, said thousands of them still in use inthe mid west. On the plus side, still lots of after market repair parts available. Think I will replace the magneto with a solid state ignition. There seem to be many parts supplies still around.
The VF4D and E series were also the motor of choice for the MTC G-16 F units (16”ga amusement park trains) in the 50’s and 60’s. Looks like Ottaway adopted them for their short run of B-14 Rocketliners (what mine is).
Glenn
looks like an ‘89 date stamp on the housing: I’ve found the company that made these things: Formsprag, and have emailed them - but no reply yet.its actually cast on the unit- which I first thought was a component name. But a company with that name actually exists, so I guess they made it.
It appears to be a Sprag hydraulic clutch of some type. But still no joy on disassembly or internal components, except some generic descriptions of how Sprag bearings work.
I plan on waiting a day or so for a reply, then disassembling the rear torsion plate to see what happens.
Edit: Ryan, just saw your update. Yes, indeed these seem to have been quite popular for small Ag and construction equipment, also in generators. Talked to a guy yesterday with an Illinois steam museum, said thousands of them still in use inthe mid west. On the plus side, still lots of after market repair parts available. Think I will replace the magneto with a solid state ignition. There seem to be many parts supplies still around.
The VF4D and E series were also the motor of choice for the MTC G-16 F units (16”ga amusement park trains) in the 50’s and 60’s. Looks like Ottaway adopted them for their short run of B-14 Rocketliners (what mine is).
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Re: Wisconsin VF4D drivetrain
Maybe a center bolt is hiding under that 4 bolt flange on the end of the clutch?
Sometimes these things just hang up on the crank too, if I only had $1 for every pump, hub, sprocket, flywheel, flange, etc that was stuck on a crankshaft lol. It looks awful clean inside for such an old motor, suspect either very low hours or an LPG model.
Sometimes these things just hang up on the crank too, if I only had $1 for every pump, hub, sprocket, flywheel, flange, etc that was stuck on a crankshaft lol. It looks awful clean inside for such an old motor, suspect either very low hours or an LPG model.
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- Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
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Re: Wisconsin VF4D drivetrain
Yep, BDD suggested that also. I took the flange off last night - nada, just the shaft with a center drill dimple.
The motor is reported to have been professionally rebuilt. I’ve found no sign that it was fired up after the rebuild... everything is cleaned, painted, new parts,except for the mag internals, then laid up on the shelf. Except it’s missing the distributor cap and coil.
Thinking Maybe they couldn't get it started and the owner stopped work - the story is it cost to much and he quit the restoration. Rich guy who contracted out all the work...
GPB
The motor is reported to have been professionally rebuilt. I’ve found no sign that it was fired up after the rebuild... everything is cleaned, painted, new parts,except for the mag internals, then laid up on the shelf. Except it’s missing the distributor cap and coil.
Thinking Maybe they couldn't get it started and the owner stopped work - the story is it cost to much and he quit the restoration. Rich guy who contracted out all the work...
GPB
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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- Posts: 2929
- Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
- Location: Woodinville, Washington
Re: Wisconsin VF4D drivetrain
Ok, finally got the clutch assembly off the shaft. Easy Peasy once you know what to do.
So, formal identification: FormSprag hydraulic clutch, 9.5” diameter, Max speed 3600 RPM, 350 foot pounds Torque, max.
Apparently a Sprag “bearing” assembly inside the casting, prevents the motor from accidentally running backwards. The hydraulic clutch components disengage the motor from the gear box at idle, (preventing the train from creeping forward (or backwards at idle, then engages the drive train as one applies throttle to move the train forward from a stop. A gear box/transmission bolts to the rear of the clutch assembly, to control forward/reverse and speed. Pretty slick and high tech design!
In case anyone needs to remove one of these clutches in the future, here’s how to do it:
1) pull the bell housing - it conceals six, 12 point flange bolts, that mount the front shaft coupling to the clutch housing;
2) remove the hard to reach 12 point bolts from the front of the clutch - (between the rear of the engine and the front of the clutch case);
3) Loosen two, front flange set screws. (These were not torqued in with the same force as the bolts on the rear - so clearly been done before...)
4) pull the assembly off the drive shaft- no need to remove the rear flange or coupling.
BDD and Ryan were correct. The clutch unit is bolted to a jack shaft - except from the front (engine) side, not the tail end. The honking big retention bolt locks the jack shaft in place. The set screws on the front coupling hold the assembly to the drive shaft.
Pictures explain much better:
Glenn
So, formal identification: FormSprag hydraulic clutch, 9.5” diameter, Max speed 3600 RPM, 350 foot pounds Torque, max.
Apparently a Sprag “bearing” assembly inside the casting, prevents the motor from accidentally running backwards. The hydraulic clutch components disengage the motor from the gear box at idle, (preventing the train from creeping forward (or backwards at idle, then engages the drive train as one applies throttle to move the train forward from a stop. A gear box/transmission bolts to the rear of the clutch assembly, to control forward/reverse and speed. Pretty slick and high tech design!
In case anyone needs to remove one of these clutches in the future, here’s how to do it:
1) pull the bell housing - it conceals six, 12 point flange bolts, that mount the front shaft coupling to the clutch housing;
2) remove the hard to reach 12 point bolts from the front of the clutch - (between the rear of the engine and the front of the clutch case);
3) Loosen two, front flange set screws. (These were not torqued in with the same force as the bolts on the rear - so clearly been done before...)
4) pull the assembly off the drive shaft- no need to remove the rear flange or coupling.
BDD and Ryan were correct. The clutch unit is bolted to a jack shaft - except from the front (engine) side, not the tail end. The honking big retention bolt locks the jack shaft in place. The set screws on the front coupling hold the assembly to the drive shaft.
Pictures explain much better:
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Re: Wisconsin VF4D drivetrain
Ah I see, so the unit has standard keyways and set screws on the crank. Remove that, and then it has a big bolt inside the center of the unit that goes into the output side shaft/flange shown?