40x60 Workshop

Discuss park gauge trains and large scale miniature railways having track gauges from 8" to 24" gauge and designed at scales of 2" to the foot or greater - whether modeled for personal use, or purpose built for amusement park operation or private railroading.

Moderators: Glenn Brooks, Harold_V

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Topics may include: antique park gauge train restoration, preservation, and history; building new grand scale equipment from scratch; large scale miniature railway construction, maintenance, and safe operation; fallen flags; track, gauge, and equipment standards; grand scale vendor offerings; and, compiling an on-line motive power roster.
Glenn Brooks
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Dave,

I like the idea of lean to’s off the side of your main shop.- maybe off each side.... You can share centralized power, compressed air, storage, etc between all the work areas this way. Very cost effective. Except for the grinding/cutting/welding area, you don’t necessarily need fully enclosed walls. My basic woodworking tools are currently stored outside, due to lack of space - covered by BBQ covers. I plan to move them all into an open air, covered woodworking area, attached to the back of my shop.

Re: lift height - one thing to consider is building a track up a ramp - or on elevated posts - up into your work area. Push or winch the equipment up the track for maintenance. A 2’ height or thereabouts gives you plenty of room to work underneath the loco, and sit on a stool to access the sides of the loco. Alleviates the need to lift equipment up onto a rack each time you want to work on something.

Be careful not to go to tall, or you end up needing a step ladder to work on top! Ask me how I learned this...

whatever you figure you need for electrical outlets and circuits - tripple it and you’ll be good through your first two remodels/ additions.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
LIALLEGHENY
Posts: 362
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:36 am
Location: Bohemia, NY

Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by LIALLEGHENY »

The Seymour Johnson Hudsons are about 45" tall. Weight I'm not sure about, I have the drawings for the 3" Hudsons, if I get a moment I'll see if there are any specs . The Berkshire I have started on, I am estimating it will be in the 12 -14,000 lb range.

Nyle
jcbrock
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2012 7:50 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by jcbrock »

I have done the same thing in terms of inheriting my folk's place and building a shop, unfortunately without the 10 acres. I went 36' by 40' with a 16' x 24' lean-to for my machine tools. It's too small, what I failed to account for were the spousal tax of a 12 x 12 art room in one corner, a son's VW bus, and storing a bunch of detritus that doesn't fit in the house but 'will be used someday' or 'are too nice to throw away' or are 'seasonal'. The 40' by 60' may be big enough if you avoid this. I would go longer if I were doing it over rather than wider.

Other lessons learned:

The correct ceiling height for what you want to do is maybe the most important thing to decide. I was told to go 17 ft for 'resale value'. It's too tall. A too tall ceiling just adds to cost everywhere you turn. It's stupid for me, as I doubt I will ever sell, I am not installing a vehicle lift, I won't use the space for an rv, and I'm not planning a mezzanine over the whole area. I did add a small one over the 12 x 12 art room, and it is a good way to store some of the clutter. I think a 12 ft ceiling would be about right for woodworking and the kind of lifting you envision as long as your lifting equipment fits. The machining area could be lower, 9' or 10'.

I agree with the idea of separating the blast cabinet and grinding in their own area. I would also put the welding equipment in an area away from the machinery, as welding and grinding go together like peanut butter and jelly. It's not a bad idea to have closets for the dust collector and air compressor. The lean-to in mine is for machining only, and I am very glad I did that.

Insulate the whole thing, and do it as soon as the floor is poured before you move anything in. I'd consider heat and A/C for the whole space too, anything you do to make it more comfortable will increase your pleasure at using the space. I did not do this in the main space and regret it.

I added a few outlets in the middle of the floor area on dongles in the 17' area or in the ceiling drywall (machining lean-to). I did 220v, but should have done both 220v and 110v. I also piped some air that I can connect from the ceiling. These have eliminated some of the cords and hoses on the floor that no one likes.

Best of luck with your project.
John Brock
Berkman
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Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by Berkman »

a 15 inch gauge Little river 2-4-4-2 would be quite sweet...
rkcarguy
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Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by rkcarguy »

davidqueener wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:52 pm A couple of thoughts:

(3) I spoke with a company here in Knoxville that sells & installs both bridge cranes as well as garage doors. Aside from the question of lift capacity, there is also the one of "hook height": How high up does one need to be able to lift to? I can readily imagine backing a trailer with a locomotive on it into the shop to lift it off and onto a shop track which would be embedded in the floor. Of course I also understand why so many club layouts have a trench to back down to and/or a transfer table of some sort to roll rolling stock and locomotives onto. Well, at this point, that would be in the future.

I suppose if I were to guesstimate what lift height I need (maximum), I would suggest open trailer height, plus locomotive height, plus some clearance to get over the wheel wells. Guys, anyone got some numbers on a tandem axle open trailer strong enough to carry a 15" gauge locomotive? Secondly, would anyone know the height on one of the Seymour Johnson 3" scale Hudsons? or mogul #7 at the WF&P?

(4) As far as weight capacity on a bridge crane, I am going to price out 5 tons, at least initially, until sticker shock gets me. That way I would have excess capacity. At that rate, I could lift my '03 Excursion or my Dad's old '66 Chrysler Imperial! Maybe a four post automobile lift could work almost as well, except for unloading a trailer or pickup truck.

I'd still like to be able to take a locomotive or a piece of rolling stock, lift it off the track embedded in the floor of the shop, or from a trailer or pick-up truck, and put it on a movable stand.
--Dave
I think with all the equipment you have, I'd recommend going with as much crane as you can fit/afford. I also work for a contractor with a fabrication shop with a laser, and have a lot of insight regarding overhead cranes. What we did was install the columns and beams that support the "crane rails" (an angle welded point upward) as high as we could (keep in mind your crane gantry will ride on top and be taller). To facilitate truck loading and unloading, we actually have 6 columns and 2 long beams with more crane rail outside, with a gap in it just big enough for the garage door to open/pass through it. The 8 wheeled gantry easily passes over the gaps. The crane rail beams then run the length of the shop inside as well. So we can offload/load big items from trucks outside or vice/versa. As far as the crane cost, most of the steel, carriage, and rails are nothing special, they can be self built if you have the capability to do so. If your building plan has columns mid span, you can have these made in steel and use them to support the building AND your crane if you plan ahead. Ours are not anything special or heavy, I believe 4" STD pipe columns with fairly light 8" beams across the tops on 10' centers. You'll need an electrician to setup a motor and drive for a power traverse on your gantry(if wanted-I'd recommend for heavy loads), and the hoist(s) is nothing more than a properly sized electric chain hoist. We actually have 3 gantry cranes that run along the same setup, and we can lift with them all together for a maximum combined weight of 20,000#'s with some safety factor left over.
I am not a fan of the car lifts, as you are stuck with that thing anchored where it is with height limitations top and bottom and it can't traverse. If you plan on working on cars/trucks as well, I'd actually cast in a work pit with stairs at one end when you do your foundation, cast in a ledge as well and make some heavy covers for it when not in use.
Mike Walsh
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Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by Mike Walsh »

WFP engines are about 4k lbs, give or take... It's been a while since we had them weighed and it's also been a while since I heard the numbers.

I would say 4k +2/-1k, plus 25% for error... :)
LIALLEGHENY
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Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:36 am
Location: Bohemia, NY

Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by LIALLEGHENY »

I agree with rkcarguy, stay away from the automotive lift. Inevitably it will wind up being in your way. I would go with an adjustable height roll around gantry. It gives you the freedom to go anywhere in the shop, and if you pour an apron in front of the shop you can even roll it outside. A good sized forklift, which would work well in conjuction with a gantry, , will also give you the freedom to go anywhere you need including outside. A forklift also gives you the ability to unload from a truck or trailer if you can't get them into the shop. Start building a railroad and get rail or steel delivered and you'll wish you had a forklift. I have a 12,000lb capacity which moves just about anything I need too, and it can be counterweighted to lift up to 15,000 if necessary. Check out the website bidspotter.com as there are always decent auctions running with gantrys, forklifts, hoists, etc and they will cost far less than new or a from a distributor.

Nyle
rkcarguy
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Location: Wa State

Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by rkcarguy »

LIALLEGHENY wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:30 am I agree with rkcarguy, stay away from the automotive lift. Inevitably it will wind up being in your way. I would go with an adjustable height roll around gantry. It gives you the freedom to go anywhere in the shop, and if you pour an apron in front of the shop you can even roll it outside. A good sized forklift, which would work well in conjuction with a gantry, , will also give you the freedom to go anywhere you need including outside. A forklift also gives you the ability to unload from a truck or trailer if you can't get them into the shop. Start building a railroad and get rail or steel delivered and you'll wish you had a forklift. I have a 12,000lb capacity which moves just about anything I need too, and it can be counterweighted to lift up to 15,000 if necessary. Check out the website bidspotter.com as there are always decent auctions running with gantrys, forklifts, hoists, etc and they will cost far less than new or a from a distributor.

Nyle
The gantry is an affordable alternate, you just have to be careful it doesn't hit something with a wheel when rolling and tip over. You can hit one small chunk of gravel, come to an abrupt stop, the load swings out to one side and over she goes. I haven't done it myself, but watched my first boss tip his 200hp outboard and the gantry into the back of his boat. :oops:
Too wide of a base as to not be tippy, and it won't be able to get close enough to the walls to drop a locomotive on a workbench along the wall, for example.
I had a 4 post car lift in my last shop, and it worked well to park one car on it, raise it up, and drive another underneath so I had more workspace in the rest of the building. Ultimately, it was in the way more than it proved useful, and also went up about 1" short of clearing my head and I hit my head on it all the time, so I sold it.
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davidqueener
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Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by davidqueener »

Ouch! The prospect of banging my head on a car lift or seeing a gantry with months of work on it topple over gives me a headache on so many levels! :)

I hope to get some pricing from the local guys who could install a bridge crane. And I will try looking on the used market as well.

--Dave
Pastor, St. Paul Presbyterian Church
www.StPaulPres.com (865) 209-5654

Owner, Cumberland Model Engineering
www.CumberlandModelEngineering.com (865) 947-7935
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Greg_Lewis
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Location: Fresno, CA

Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by Greg_Lewis »

Climate control has been somewhat mentioned above; give this some thought. I have a small inner room for the lathe, mill and drill press that I can heat and cool more efficiently than the whole shop. As someone else mentioned, do insulate the whole thing though. I wish mine was big for some sort of office area; it gets tiresome to hike back and forth between the house and the shop when I need to check references or look something up online.
Greg Lewis, Prop.
Eyeball Engineering — Home of the dull toolbit.
Our motto: "That looks about right."
Celebrating 35 years of turning perfectly good metal into bits of useless scrap.
RSG
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Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by RSG »

Greg_Lewis wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:17 pm I wish mine was big for some sort of office area; it gets tiresome to hike back and forth between the house and the shop when I need to check references or look something up online.
Heard that! my sentiments exactly....
Vision is not seeing things as they are, but as they will be.
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ALCOSTEAM
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Location: illinois

Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by ALCOSTEAM »

I don't know of anyone who has put up a building and made the decision that they didn't need restroom facilities that does not regret it now. The older you get the more important this "total waste of shop space" becomes..
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