40x60 Workshop

Discuss park gauge trains and large scale miniature railways having track gauges from 8" to 24" gauge and designed at scales of 2" to the foot or greater - whether modeled for personal use, or purpose built for amusement park operation or private railroading.

Moderators: Glenn Brooks, Harold_V

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Topics may include: antique park gauge train restoration, preservation, and history; building new grand scale equipment from scratch; large scale miniature railway construction, maintenance, and safe operation; fallen flags; track, gauge, and equipment standards; grand scale vendor offerings; and, compiling an on-line motive power roster.
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davidqueener
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40x60 Workshop

Post by davidqueener »

Gentlemen,

I am laying out the floor plan for a dream workshop to go with a grand scale railroad I have been planning for my boyhood home which I inherited this past January. The intent is to build a 40x60 building with at least 12' ceiling height to house my wire EDM, CNC mill & lathe, laser cutter, manual machine tools, and my wife's art studio (she's a painter but she also draws in AutoCAD and has hi-jacked my CO2 laser for her own Etsy business :D ). Anyway, I am planning to put a garage door on the end of the building which will give 10.5 feet of clearance. I am also contemplating installing some sort of small bridge crane for lifting locomotives off the rails and onto stands or pulling boilers.

Here's where I need help: capacity. I really do not have a handle on what a 12" or 15" gauge locomotive, such as a Wagner 4-4-4 or one of the WF&P 4-6-2s would weigh. Does anyone? The company I am talking to has 2 ton capacity bridge cranes that run on 110 volts, which would be adaequate for 7.5" gauge equipment, but I am looking to build or rebuild a grand scale locomotive at some point, and I am confident I will need to be able to move more than 4,000 lbs. Any ideas?
Pastor, St. Paul Presbyterian Church
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FLSTEAM
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Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by FLSTEAM »

My Mogul ( 15" ga. ) weighed 4000 lbs. and if I remember the Bell Gardens Hudson came in at about 10.000 lbs.
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davidqueener
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Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by davidqueener »

I'm not sure if this is the right place to chronicle building a workshop and showing my progress on putting track into the building, but I thought I would post a few pics of the property as we go. I've got 9 acres to play on, about 3 of which is pond, smack dab in the middle. The shop building is going to be in the field to the left of the house and current garage, connected to the latter with a covered walkway / breezeway. This is the beginnings of fulfilling a dream I have had since I was a boy in the 1970s and first got a copy of the Little Engines catalogue :) .
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Pastor, St. Paul Presbyterian Church
www.StPaulPres.com (865) 209-5654

Owner, Cumberland Model Engineering
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Berkman
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Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by Berkman »

Can probably fit a 1-2 mi mainline 7.5 gauge line on that. Maybe a stone viaduct over the pond....
Getting the LE catalog back out now?

Congrats
Glenn Brooks
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Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by Glenn Brooks »

davidqueener wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:56 pm I'm not sure if this is the right place to chronicle building a workshop and showing my progress on putting track into the building, but I thought I would post a few pics of the property as we go. I've got 9 acres to play on, about 3 of which is pond, smack dab in the middle. The shop building is going to be in the field to the left of the house and current garage, connected to the latter with a covered walkway / breezeway. This is the beginnings of fulfilling a dream I have had since I was a boy in the 1970s and first got a copy of the Little Engines catalogue :) .
Dave,

Sure! Go for it. Fun to see what you come up with...

Not sure what max weight you should plan for. At least 2000 - 4000 # engine weight for the usual park gauge equipment. 10k easily for a larger 5” steam engine, I would guess.

A lot depends on what scale you decide to build. 3” scale is light weight 1000- 2000#. 4” scale maybe 4,000#+, and the big 5” stuff, 10000# and up...

I’ve been real happy so far with a 2 ton engine hoist and my shop made 2 ton gantry crane. The frame and structure below is a 1/3 scale, 4” center cab loco. 2000#laden weight when assembled.
22F4EC14-A6A2-4F5B-8AAB-87AF7A29700F.jpeg
You could easily go with a 4 or 6 ton gantry crane for the larger scales.

Also use a nice little automotive floor jack to level and block up locomotive frames. My thought originally was to use both the engine hoist and gantry crane in tandem for heavier lifts - one on each end, as needed. I made the gantry so it will fit through the shop door and lift heavy stuff in one of my bay. Since then, I've found the engine hoist to be very useful for moving around the yard for lifting derailed equipment.

BTW, restoration work is really dirty, messy work. Tremendous amount of rust removal, cutting and fitting, with constant grinding, drilling, sanding, chipping, welding, sandblasting, all of which spread grime, rust, dust, and dirt everywhere. An enclosed, dedicated cutting/grinding, metal storage prep room, off in one enclosed lean to or wing outside your new shop would make life so much simpler and easier...and cleaner. Could double as a car barn in the off season...

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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ALCOSTEAM
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Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by ALCOSTEAM »

Dry the 12" #7 ( engine and tender ) is right at 3000 lbs.
IMG_0234.jpg
I would think a Wagner Jubilee or one of the WF&P pacifics would be a bit heavier.

We are actually working on a 7 1/2" Wagner 4-4-4 at the shop now.
curtis cutter
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Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by curtis cutter »

Curious, could you recess the tracks so the top of the track is at grade with the concrete and then install a 9000lb two post auto lift to serve multiple purposes?
Gregg
Just let go of it, it will eventually unplug itself.
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Bill Shields
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Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by Bill Shields »

I am with gregg..a single overhead beam on a loco of the potential size you are describing may not be the best idea in the world.

The dual column car lift is more like what I would be comfortable using.
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rkcarguy
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Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by rkcarguy »

Glenn Brooks wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:05 pm BTW, restoration work is really dirty, messy work. Tremendous amount of rust removal, cutting and fitting, with constant grinding, drilling, sanding, chipping, welding, sandblasting, all of which spread grime, rust, dust, and dirt everywhere. An enclosed, dedicated cutting/grinding, metal storage prep room, off in one enclosed lean to or wing outside your new shop would make life so much simpler and easier...and cleaner. Could double as a car barn in the off season...
I'll second this. Don't do this work where your laser, lathe, mills, or other machines/trains are housed. The grit can damage everything, and get embedded in painted surfaces and then the first time it gets wet you've got little rusted specs in your paint. My new plan includes a separate train shed for storage and wrench turning, a big carport for my vehicles, and a 20' ocean freight container for messy fabrication work, where as all of these things shared a 28x36 building at my prior home. The 20' container is small enough that it will be cheap and quick to heat up if I want to do fabrication work in the winter, compared to having to heat up a whole big building.
Berkman
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Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by Berkman »

Ideally you'd have a seperate wood work area as well.. I know you didn't mention that but in an "ideal world"..
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davidqueener
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Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by davidqueener »

A couple of thoughts:

(1) We do cut wood, mainly plywood and basswood, on our CO2 laser for F scale freight car kits and my wife's Christmas ornaments / brick-a-brac business, and it does generate some dust. I want to isolate the laser and its wood supply from our other activities. My wife also needs a relatively dust free environment in which to paint, so that will chew up some more space.

(2) A separate lean-to or even a container for doing grinding & welding makes good sense. You all are right: it is grungy but necessary work. So I would hate to share fabrication space with completed rolling stock on account of the dust and rust factor; and towards that end, I have thought about putting a separate car barn elsewhere on the property, but that is still a ways down the road.

(3) I spoke with a company here in Knoxville that sells & installs both bridge cranes as well as garage doors. Aside from the question of lift capacity, there is also the one of "hook height": How high up does one need to be able to lift to? I can readily imagine backing a trailer with a locomotive on it into the shop to lift it off and onto a shop track which would be embedded in the floor. Of course I also understand why so many club layouts have a trench to back down to and/or a transfer table of some sort to roll rolling stock and locomotives onto. Well, at this point, that would be in the future.

I suppose if I were to guesstimate what lift height I need (maximum), I would suggest open trailer height, plus locomotive height, plus some clearance to get over the wheel wells. Guys, anyone got some numbers on a tandem axle open trailer strong enough to carry a 15" gauge locomotive? Secondly, would anyone know the height on one of the Seymour Johnson 3" scale Hudsons? or mogul #7 at the WF&P?

(4) As far as weight capacity on a bridge crane, I am going to price out 5 tons, at least initially, until sticker shock gets me. That way I would have excess capacity. At that rate, I could lift my '03 Excursion or my Dad's old '66 Chrysler Imperial! Maybe a four post automobile lift could work almost as well, except for unloading a trailer or pickup truck.

I'd still like to be able to take a locomotive or a piece of rolling stock, lift it off the track embedded in the floor of the shop, or from a trailer or pick-up truck, and put it on a movable stand.

--Dave
Pastor, St. Paul Presbyterian Church
www.StPaulPres.com (865) 209-5654

Owner, Cumberland Model Engineering
www.CumberlandModelEngineering.com (865) 947-7935
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ALCOSTEAM
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Re: 40x60 Workshop

Post by ALCOSTEAM »

The #7 is not the WF&P 's. We only take it there to run it and unfortunately its been 10 years now. Its been residing in my box truck since the last time it run. When I get a chance I will measure it for height.
When we get some of the 7 1/2" projects caught up we will be getting the #7 back to the shop. Since the truck has not been on the road in about 10 years and I don't intend to plate it for a one time 90 mile round trip it means I will have to pick it up and set it on one of the trailers. I have a track loader at the house that will easily pick it up. The stack on the #7 unscrews and I made a short piece with a hook in it to screw into the stack place for a front lifting spot, the rear drag beam can be hooked with chains.

For a crane you will want to watch for a good used one as new ones are just not affordable unless you have a real need and a way to pay the piper. Locally a place closed down that had several small ones, one guy bought most of them for very little and resold all within a couple weeks.
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