"If at first you don't succeed..." Indiana Northern #4- Allen 0-4-0

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318J
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Re: "If at first you don't succeed..." Indiana Northern #4- Allen 0-4-0

Post by 318J »

Thanks for the advice on setting the frames up Mike, I'll be doing this on a friend's South Bend, him and I are building the 0-4-0 and his Allen American almost side by side.

How do you go about making and setting up your fixtures for your holes you mentioned? I'm unfamiliar with doing that. I appreciate the offer if you'd be available to talk over the finer details.
-Sam
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"Preserving the Past and Ensuring Our Future"
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NP317
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Re: "If at first you don't succeed..." Indiana Northern #4- Allen 0-4-0

Post by NP317 »

Note on frame machining:
When I build both my locomotives, I bolted the frame halves together (drill one frame , tap the other frame) and kept them together as long as possible.
Then they were as close to identical as I could get.
It worked.
RussN
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Harold_V
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Re: "If at first you don't succeed..." Indiana Northern #4- Allen 0-4-0

Post by Harold_V »

NP317 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:41 pm Note on frame machining:
When I build both my locomotives, I bolted the frame halves together (drill one frame , tap the other frame) and kept them together as long as possible.
Then they were as close to identical as I could get.
It worked.
RussN
If one can find an inconspicuous place to put them, a pair of dowel pins can be utilized to guarantee registration. With them, the frames can be uncoupled numerous times (as required) and re-assembled without loss of orientation. They need not be large---even 1/8" dowel pins can work, and they can even occupy the same location of larger diameter bolts, with the location opened up when all machining of the frames has been completed.

Assuming one has an interest in using this common method of locating components, the dowel pins are generally a press fit in one component and a slip fit in the other so they assemble effortlessly and the pins are not lost.

H
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djjh87
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Re: "If at first you don't succeed..." Indiana Northern #4- Allen 0-4-0

Post by djjh87 »

Here is the pins I machined for a slip fit.
Reaming hole for pin in boiler support hole . notice pin in place in brake hanger hole
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Last edited by rmac on Tue May 10, 2022 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Photo Orientation
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318J
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Re: "If at first you don't succeed..." Indiana Northern #4- Allen 0-4-0

Post by 318J »

I had the same thoughts of tying the frames together so that they are made the exact same, and save some time from making them separate. But it also runs the risk of one mistake messing both up, something I think about as I haven't machined a set of frames like this before. Is that still something you would recommend for a novice?

I'm a welder by trade, so any mistake wouldn't be something I couldn't weld up and refinish, but its not something I want to do if I can help it!
-Sam
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NP317
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Re: "If at first you don't succeed..." Indiana Northern #4- Allen 0-4-0

Post by NP317 »

First:
Harold and djjh87:
Excellent idea to use the dowel alignment pins.

318J:
I suggest that the chance of simultaneously making a mistake on both connected frames
is far less than making mistakes getting the individual frames machined identically.
Statistics...

Measure twice (or more times), cut once.
RussN
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Harold_V
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Re: "If at first you don't succeed..." Indiana Northern #4- Allen 0-4-0

Post by Harold_V »

318J wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 8:21 am I had the same thoughts of tying the frames together so that they are made the exact same, and save some time from making them separate. But it also runs the risk of one mistake messing both up, something I think about as I haven't machined a set of frames like this before. Is that still something you would recommend for a novice?
My opinion? Yes, it is. I am in total agreement with RussN in his reasons why, and here's another thing to consider. If you learn to use a steel rule when making cuts, or even when drilling holes, you can prevent the vast majority of mistakes made by misreading the dial or transposing a measurement. That was one of the things that was difficult for me to grasp when I was in training (as a machinist).

If you use a quality steel rule and learn to read it properly, you'll find that you can detect errors as small as .005", depending on the nature of the measurement. A missed turn of the dial is real obvious, needless to say. Also, one thing that may not be obvious to many is that most parts are dimensioned in fractions that are familiar to us. If the rule doesn't coincide with the intended dimension, a red flag should go up.
I'm a welder by trade, so any mistake wouldn't be something I couldn't weld up and refinish, but its not something I want to do if I can help it!
And rightly so! I've done enough welding in my day (I do not consider myself a weldor) to know that high heat applied to an existing part will alter the part, often in ways that may not be acceptable. Welding up the mistake may not be much of a problem, but the resulting distortion would most likely be. One is always better off to measure twice, cut once and avoid the mistake(s).

H
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Bill Shields
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Re: "If at first you don't succeed..." Indiana Northern #4- Allen 0-4-0

Post by Bill Shields »

Been stacking and milling frames in pairs for best part of 50 years.

Dowel pins or stripper bolts have been my choice...although I have tack welded a set together...then cut the weld away afterward.

Nice thing about making an error using this technique is that no matter what ..both frames are the same -> and if all else fails, you can make a set of axleboxes to suit...since it is the position of the axles that is important, not the size of the cutouts that hold them.
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Dick_Morris
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Re: "If at first you don't succeed..." Indiana Northern #4- Allen 0-4-0

Post by Dick_Morris »

For a sacrificial spacer between the frames and milling machine table I use a piece of MDF with holes where I want tie downs. The smooth surfaces and consistent thickness is plenty good for this purpose.
Mike Walsh
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Re: "If at first you don't succeed..." Indiana Northern #4- Allen 0-4-0

Post by Mike Walsh »

Absolutely pin them together if you can. I don't think I did it on mine, but I'm OK with that.

You just need to remember to purchase endmills with a long enough cutting surface in order to be able to cut the entire thickness. I've seen it happen where folks forget and then they have a small lip at the end.
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Harold_V
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Re: "If at first you don't succeed..." Indiana Northern #4- Allen 0-4-0

Post by Harold_V »

Mike Walsh wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:54 am You just need to remember to purchase endmills with a long enough cutting surface in order to be able to cut the entire thickness. I've seen it happen where folks forget and then they have a small lip at the end.
The lip can be avoided by relieving the shank of the end mill in use so a deeper cut can be taken. It is best done with a cutter grinder, so a minimal relief can be ground, but it can be hand ground at the pedestal grinder as well. It's just not nearly as pretty.

By relieving the end mill shank, two passes must be taken instead of one, so hitting the mark on the dial is critical, otherwise a step is generated in the cut. Not a big deal if one has good work habits, though. Marking the dial makes it quite easy.

H
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318J
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Re: "If at first you don't succeed..." Indiana Northern #4- Allen 0-4-0

Post by 318J »

A couple weeks ago I picked up the drivers from Railroad Supply. Summer time starts shutdown and travel season for work, so unfortunately I won't be getting a start on the frame as soon as I had hoped. But, on the other hand, traveling and overtime on shutdowns makes it easier to get the parts I can keep for now, and work on them later. Getting the parts and materials is the first step! So, progress is still being made.
20220604_074251.jpg
-Sam
Boilermaker, Pipefitter, former Railroader
"Preserving the Past and Ensuring Our Future"
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