Hardinge BB4 wiring issues - Please help!

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Jim Clark
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:55 am

Hardinge BB4 wiring issues - Please help!

Post by Jim Clark »

Would anyone here happen to have any knowledge regarding wiring an old Hardinge BB4 mill? I have acquired an old machine that has electrical issues and unfortunately I am not an electrician, so I am not 100% certain what to do to correct the issues.

For example:
1. I have been dabbling with the machine making brackets for a vintage race car project, and when it works it is awesome. Does the job rather well.
But for the last 4 months it has been blowing fuses. Now I have no idea what fuses it is supposed to have in it. It was converted from 230V to 110V before it was gifted to me, and it seems to me that the fuses that are there are rated too low. I am told that a BUSS fuse for a 110V set up should be at least rated to 25 amps. No idea if this is right or not though. Don't really want to start a fire by using one that is rated too high.
I have not been using it for very long, so this might have been an issue with it's previous owner as well. It currently has one FRN15, and 2-FRN8 BUSS fuses in it. It keeps blowing the FRN15, which is the first one in the box. (I have detailed photos of all of the components in the event that anyone needs to see anything if they have suggestions. I am not knowledgeable enough to completely describe everything that needs to be taken into account with this issue, so please bear with me.)

2. Reverse does not work at all and I am not sure how to - or even if - the barrel switches are wired correctly. There is one black wire that is in the system that is completely disconnect at both ends of the electrical run, so something is not hooked up right.

I will start with those two issues. It also appears to be missing an electrical switch on the back. The magnetic switch used to sit inline with the system, and now the box remains with just 3 wires running through it. The wires are hooked up and are working in the circuit, but I am not sure what the original box controlled and whether or not it needs to be there. I would like to get this thing repaired and operating properly. It is actually a pretty neat little machine and it will most certainly do everything that I need to it to do so that I can complete my projects.

If at all possible I would like to go back to the 230V set up, but the original owner has passed away and my friend who actually got the machine for me in the first place has no idea how to wire it up either.

Thank you for reading this and I really hope that I can find someone that has some knowledge that they would be willing share regarding this machine.

(sorry, some of the photos are flipped sideways and I can not figure out how to change that.)
Attachments
2.JPG
This image is turned sideways. The FRN15 is to the left when displayed appropriately.
This image is turned sideways. The FRN15 is to the left when displayed appropriately.
Image sideways - wires are actually on the right. Can not read any numbering on these wires, no idea how they are supposed to be hooked up.
Image sideways - wires are actually on the right. Can not read any numbering on these wires, no idea how they are supposed to be hooked up.
Jim Clark
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:55 am

Re: Hardinge BB4 wiring issues - Please help!

Post by Jim Clark »

Sorry, I should point out that my statement regarding the numbering on the motor wires is not 100% accurate. I can, in fact, read a couple of them, but not enough to follow any schematic or anything.

Thanks again for reading this.
kl7sg
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:00 pm
Location: Springtown, TX

Re: Hardinge BB4 wiring issues - Please help!

Post by kl7sg »

Hi Jim,

I have an electrical back ground; but, I am not familiar with the Harding BB4.

How many horsepower is the motor?
You indicate that the machine is wired for 110 Volt operation -- does the motor have a manufactures' mark and model number?

A fifteen amp fuse should be good for about 1.7 hp at 110 Volts. Just before the fuse blows, can you hear the motor start to load up (slow down)?
Like you are working it really hard?

I will see if I can find a description of this machine online.
Have a nice day,

Mike
kl7sg
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:00 pm
Location: Springtown, TX

Re: Hardinge BB4 wiring issues - Please help!

Post by kl7sg »

Also, from what I have found online, it probably came with a 220 Volt 3 phase motor.
Can you get a picture of a data plate on the motor if it has one?
Have a nice day,

Mike
kl7sg
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:00 pm
Location: Springtown, TX

Re: Hardinge BB4 wiring issues - Please help!

Post by kl7sg »

I found some more info on your machine.
It seems like it is a 220 Volt three phase motor ( see the attachments)
If your motor is the same as in the pictures, it should be fairly easy to get going.

Also, are you using a Variable Frequency Drive ( VFD)?
Harding BB4 Motor.jpg
Harding BB4 motor wiring.jpg
Have a nice day,

Mike
Jim Clark
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:55 am

Re: Hardinge BB4 wiring issues - Please help!

Post by Jim Clark »

Thank you for responding Mike.

I actually have a photo of the motor plate. I will upload it here.

It actually does not make any sounds, or even seem like it is working too hard. I have never noticed anything performance wise, and the fuse is warm, but not hot when it shuts down. Now truthfully when it first started happening I did not notice that it was not working until I tried to turn it back on. It just would not restart. Here lately however I have been touching the fuse after every time that I run it and even when it fails to restart the fuse does not feel hot. It is warm though, and it always has been every time I have used it. Please keep in mind that I honestly don't know if it is even supposed to be getting warm, so take my description with a grain of salt please.
I turn it off and it just intermittently fails to start again. I change the fuse and it is back up and running.

I do not know whether or not this is an original motor. I have been struggling to find any information on this machine at all. It seems like everything I find is contradicted on another web page. Honestly that is how I ended up here, I just found this page today while trying to find more info on the machine. I have read on a couple of posts on other boards that this motor was an option for this machine though.
motor tag.jpg
Jim Clark
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:55 am

Re: Hardinge BB4 wiring issues - Please help!

Post by Jim Clark »

Sorry, I am still trying to figure out how to use this forum, so my responses are slow.

Thank you for sending that image and information, but that is not the motor that is in the machine. The one in the machine is a single phase motor I believe.
Jim Clark
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:55 am

Re: Hardinge BB4 wiring issues - Please help!

Post by Jim Clark »

It is entirely possible that the motor that is in there is not the one that it was manufactured with. The machine was built in 1942, so it has been around for a little while. It started life as a machine used by The Department of Defense, so I would think that it most likely had a 3 phase motor, but again, I really don't know.
Jim Clark
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:55 am

Re: Hardinge BB4 wiring issues - Please help!

Post by Jim Clark »

Oh, and no, it is still using most of it's original parts. I do not have a VFD on it.
It has 2 barrel switches on it. One for forward and reverse and another for speed.
Attachments
Again, sideways. Sorry, still have not figured out how to fix that. The wire conduit comes out of the bottom, so the photos are laying on their right sides.
Again, sideways. Sorry, still have not figured out how to fix that. The wire conduit comes out of the bottom, so the photos are laying on their right sides.
Again, sideways. Sorry, still have not figured out how to fix that. The wire conduit comes out of the bottom, so the photos are laying on their right sides.
Again, sideways. Sorry, still have not figured out how to fix that. The wire conduit comes out of the bottom, so the photos are laying on their right sides.
whateg0
Posts: 1114
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:54 pm
Location: Wichita, KS

Re: Hardinge BB4 wiring issues - Please help!

Post by whateg0 »

If that fuse is supplying that motor, it looks like it is sized about right. Littlefuse (https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/electr ... -guide.pdf) shows 12-13.99 FLA should use a 15A fuse. However, as they point out, it should be a time delay (slow blow) fuse to allow for small spikes in current, especially at start up. I suspect that the fuse is not blowing when you turn it off, but rather when you turn it on. The symptom would be the same - works when you shut it off, but not the next time.

Does it matter which position the speed lever is in when the fuse blows? Does the speed lever even do anything?

Assuming that you are not exceeding the ampacity of all of the wiring, I would not be too worried about going up to a 17.5 or 20 A fuse. Bear in mind your breaker at the service panel should be sized for the wiring in the walls, so it is protected no matter what. I'm sure some will disagree with that, but it's an old motor in a machine where it has to start spinning a lot of massive components when first turned on, so it can draw more than rated for a moment.

Without knowing which terminals are connected in the drum switch, it's impossible to say whether it is wired right. I can't find a wiring diagram for the motor either, but that motor plate does not indicate that it can be wired for multiple speeds.
Jim Clark
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:55 am

Re: Hardinge BB4 wiring issues - Please help!

Post by Jim Clark »

Thank you for the response whateg0.

The fuses that are in it are Fusetron Dual Element FRN BUSS fuses. I may be wrong but I believe that the dual element is to compensate for the start up amperage spike. At least I think that is what I read on the BUSSMAN Fusetron product listing. (I have a horrible memory - it sucks to get old. LOL)

The machine came with a few spare fuses, but I have been thinking that I should purchase some new ones. I can not think of any reason that being old would make them fail provided they weren't used before, but anything is possible I suppose.

I had not considered that it might be blowing when I turn it on, that is both reasonable, and a real good possibility. Could a faulty capacitor cause that perhaps? Maybe the next step is to find an electrical motor shop in this area.

The longer of the two switch handles is the speed selector, and it only works on high. If you pull it toward you to the high position the mill turns on. If you go the other way it does not do anything at all. There is not any power at the motor at all in the low speed setting. The situation is the same with the reverse selector. It only works going forward and on high speed.

I can not remember off of the top of my head, although I will look tomorrow, but I believe that all of the circuit breakers in the breaker box are 20 amp, including the 220 breakers. I will check that in the morning.

I am going to have to go through and draw up a schematic or something with regards to the wiring on the barrel switches. I am not really sure how those are wired, I have not gotten that far yet. I do have photos of all 4 connection locations there but I can't tell which wires are which. They are not color coded or marked for identity at all, and they are all red and black, so I need to figure out where they all go before anyone can help with that I think. I can not find any documentation on the machine at all when it pertains to the wiring. I found one sales brochure for it, and that is about all.

Thanks again for helping me figure this thing out.
kl7sg
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:00 pm
Location: Springtown, TX

Re: Hardinge BB4 wiring issues - Please help!

Post by kl7sg »

Are you using an extension cord?
The voltage drop caused by a long cord or undersized extension cord wiring could be causing a low voltage condition.
You might want to measure the voltage at the motor when the machine is cutting.

It seems likely that you are probably facing a simple installation problem and not a machine problem.

An electric motor can draw two to three times it's rated current during startup. I agree with the other comments regarding the use of slow blow fuses.
Also, a fuse should not feel warm to the touch. Fuse loading should be kept to less than 80% of it's rating.
It has been several years since I gave much thought to fuses and I believe (I too have "CRS" -- can't remember stuff) when a fuse heats up, it will blow sooner than one expects.

Anyway, let me know what the motor voltage is, under normal cutting load.
Have a nice day,

Mike
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