A couple of salvage machines

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Gdtrfg
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Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:05 pm

A couple of salvage machines

Post by Gdtrfg »

Hi, this is my first post here and I’m not sure if this is where I should start, but it seemed reasonable given what I have.
A friend called me up a few weeks ago, and told me about a house he was tearing down that had some machines in the basement and was I interested in them. Short answer. Always.
We made our way into the basement of his dilapidated house, which he had purchased from the estate of the former homeowner. The power had been shut off long ago, and there was 2” of water we had to wade through, but what was revealed by the light of a cell phone, was a mill, a turntable that went with the mill, a mystery machine with flat belt power, and an 18” drill press. There were also several small woodworking machines that I won’t bore you with details of.
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Can anyone tell me what it is I have here? I’m all set with the drill press. It’s a Cincinnati Royal 18”. The top cover was crushed when it fell over during the demo of the house. In fact, the turntable arrangement also disappeared. It was wired into the ceiling and when the ceiling got lifted off I think the turntable went with it.
I have since found out that the mystery machine is a metal shaper, of which I have zero knowledge of how it works or what it does. same goes for the mill, but I at least know some of what it can do.
My end goal is to move both the mill and shaper along to someone who can use them. So with that in mind, anybody with knowledge of these two lumps care to advance what you think they may be worth? Thank you all. Paul
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BadDog
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Re: A couple of salvage machines

Post by BadDog »

The first pic is of a shaper (metal, differentiated from similarly named wood tool). Very handy, very flexible, but about 50 years out of date. I've heard it said that "you can make anything with a shaper, except money", and that's probably pretty accurate. Mills have taken over just about everything a shaper was used for, but I would still love to have one myself, and have been casually looking for a nice quality 16". A friend has a 21 Cincinnati that is beautiful and makes me jealous when I see it. Almost hypnotic watching them run. In any case, IMO, that's the best machine you got out of the deal in spite of modern wisdom as to it's usefulness. LOTS of good work got done on those, and still is by the few functional examples in use.

The drill press looks to be a pretty nice older version. Certainly worth having, and if not clapped out, better than HF.

Unfortunately the mill is an example of one of the lowest forms called a "mill-drill", also a "round column mill". It makes a better heavy drill press than a mill, but it can work if you learn it's limitations and don't set expectations too high. Lots of info on the web by folks trying to use them, and improve them.

Welcome and good luck!

If you want to "move them along" to someone here, you'll need to state a location.
Russ
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Gdtrfg
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Re: A couple of salvage machines

Post by Gdtrfg »

Thanks Russ, I appreciate the info. Knowing nothing about either machine, but having a “sort of” idea about what a mill can do, I thought the mill might be the one that had some value. The shaper is interesting just because of it’s look, and I can’t resist a flat belt drive. I have two wood shapers with flat belts, and i love them.
My shop is in Maine, and I have managed to replace all my newer (affordable) machines with vintage English kit mostly. All my really great machines are from the mid ‘50’s when bases and assemblies were cast and machined. I think my lightest machine is one of my mortisers, and it has to go 1200 lb.
Do you have any feel for what a reasonable price would be for the mill and the shaper? If the mill is the bottom tier of the usability department, is a couple hundred dollars where i should be? $600 for both? I really don’t know, so am just looking for some guidance from someone who does.
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BadDog
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Re: A couple of salvage machines

Post by BadDog »

The mills seem to bring decent prices relative to what they are, and prices for better mills. Mostly from those that are getting started and making the common mistake of overvaluing a "small" machine they will (very often) want to upgrade if they progress and grow in that hobby/business/whatever.

Shapers tend to go cheap in areas where shapers are/were common. In other areas (like Phoenix), shapers can command decent prices, mostly from folks like me who want them regardless of practicality. So, kinda the same as that mill.

And no way to put a number on it without knowing the local market. We've got some members in your area who may be able to provide more help.
Russ
Master Floor Sweeper
John Evans
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Re: A couple of salvage machines

Post by John Evans »

That shaper seems to be of reasonable size that is bigger than the SB Ammco etc . 7" stroke stuff . I would give $600 for all 3 pieces . You don't know how much wear is on the shaper and the drill mill was not terribly accurate to start with. The more tooling with the mill the better ,shaper uses similar holders to the old lathe rocker style toolposts. I do note the shaper is sitting on a furnisher style dolly BE VERY careful moving on that as that shaper is going to be very top heavy.
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Gdtrfg
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Re: A couple of salvage machines

Post by Gdtrfg »

Thanks John. Don’t worry, I have moved many machines. I had to put the mill down on any wheels I wasn’t using under something else, so I could push it out of the way to make room for unloading more with my chain fall.
Russ Hanscom
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Re: A couple of salvage machines

Post by Russ Hanscom »

Shapers are great, except that they are heavy, slow, and take up a lot of floor space. However, they use cheap tooling, square bits, and can surface flats, cut dovetails, keyways, gear teeth, and lots of other profiles. Looks like the price is right, so I would advise keeping it.
pete
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Re: A couple of salvage machines

Post by pete »

Fwiw and afaik most shapers are pretty much standardized by most manufacturer's and built using the concept of what size of square metal block they could machine. Adjust your ram to it's absolute longest stroke length and measure it. That should give you it's maximum capability's for a parts length, height and width. But from your picture that one looks to be about a 10"-12" size. And shapers are very deceptive in just how safe they look to operate because they appear to be moving pretty slow. Never ever get any part of your body inside of it's maximum travels while it's moving. With there really low gear reductions even a 7" South Bend with a 1/2 HP motor won't even slow down at all while shearing your hand off if you did something really stupid. Shapers are probably one of the more dangerous machine tools around. Many have been killed or permanently maimed when larger shapers were much more common than today. And unless you always run at it's bottom 2 speeds you can figure that shaper is going to need bolting down to your concrete floor.

Have a close look around where it was, maybe you'll get lucky and find the proper vise it should have had. There becoming fairly rare now and finding the correct vise that matches your shapers tee slot pitch spacing might be almost impossible, or at least quite expensive even if you could find one. Your pictures don't detail the lower front of the shapers base casting. Check for a machined area on the bottom front of the base.Unless that shaper is a bit older than I think, it might be also good to look around for anything that looks like a table support foot. Those were used in the later models of shaper to support the table against it deflecting under the cutting loads. It's a very important piece to have if it was designed to use one.
Gdtrfg
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Re: A couple of salvage machines

Post by Gdtrfg »

The more I think about it and the more I find out, I am thinking the vise(because I’m now convinced that’s what the turntable thing was) had been stolen. When we first went into the basement it was as dark as a boot, and seeing things with someone else’s cell phone flashlight doesn’t exactly give you good detail. Anyway, it’s gone. I did scour the area and picked up a few other bits and pieces of shop built hold-downs and whatnot, but there was nothing left that looked remotely like it belonged with the shaper.
pete
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Re: A couple of salvage machines

Post by pete »

What your calling a turntable might well have been the swivel base used on either the vise that was on the mill/drill or the shaper. I'd have to see a picture to be sure. Most actual shaper vises were built a bit different than what would be called a milling machine vise. They were always designed to be as low profile in there height as possible while still being capable of rigidly holding the work. A more standard milling vise could be used with maybe a shop made adapter plate that uses drilled holes, bolts and tee nuts to hold the plate to the shaper table and drilled / tapped holes to then bolt the vise to the plate. You lose a bit in height of course. For that size of shaper a 5"-6" milling vise would work, but the original vise might have been a bit larger than that.

My guess is that shaper will have the usual oil filled sump that may or may not have an internal pump and oil lines up to the top ram. Finding replacement parts today for an unknown model of shaper is just about impossible. If it were me I'd drain what oil is left in the sump, flush the sump, bull gear and scotch yoke assembly (it sets the ram stroke length) clean with some diesel and refill with maybe some 30 weight non detergent motor oil or even some hydraulic oil. Shaper oil sumps aren't well enclosed so it collects a whole lot of air bore dust, chips from the machine working, bugs, even dead mice etc. If it's got an oil pump or the ram ways are manually oiled it's extremely important those ways always have clean oil while it's working or you will score those precision surfaces and start to ruin whatever accuracy it still has. Any surface rust on the ram or table ways should be manually scraped off using an old school razor blade before trying to run the machine. That rust is harder than the cast iron it started from and will also help to score and damage the surfaces. I don't usually recommend using any abrasives to clean way surfaces, but flooding the surface with some light oil and lightly scrubbing with some 4X steel wool shouldn't hurt it.

This web site is about the best and most comprehensive one I know of that's specifically about shapers. http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/shaper_columns.html With some time you may be able to identify the manufacturer and model of what you now have. A good condition shaper can produce a surface finish and accuracy levels well above what can be obtained with a more conventional vertical mill. The correct tool angles and being ultra sharp are extremely important to obtain that though. There's also lots of YouTube videos showing how to use a shaper and even recommended tool angles for different metal types that work well.
shootnride
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Re: A couple of salvage machines

Post by shootnride »

That "turntable" may have been a rotary table. Could have been for the mill or even the shaper.

Ted
Some people raise the IQ of the room when they enter.........others when they leave.
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