Considering a DRO

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Patio
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Re: Considering a DRO

Post by Patio »

Harold also makes great use of grease pencils, when doing repetitive jobs, using dials. I have yet to pick some up, but it is on my todo list.
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armscor 1
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Re: Considering a DRO

Post by armscor 1 »

A machinery dealer once told me if you don't have a DRO you are living in the dark ages, guess I am still living in the dark ages, do everything manually.
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Harold_V
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Re: Considering a DRO

Post by Harold_V »

armscor 1 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:04 pm A machinery dealer once told me if you don't have a DRO you are living in the dark ages, guess I am still living in the dark ages, do everything manually.
Heh! Dealers of smart phones would likely parrot that comment. Anyone watch the news about a week ago, to see an individual walk off the platform of a subway (fell to the tracks), while looking at his phone?

While the topic of discussion isn't smart phones, the end result is much the same. When we allow these modern conveniences to control our lives, we lose something. I can't afford to do that. If I turn to exclusive use of DRO, it's only a matter of time until I am held captive by the DRO.

No thanks.

I'm quick to admit that a DRO is a nice addition to any machine, but I'm just as quick to remind readers that the skill set required to operate (manual) machine tools comes only with practice. If one hopes to become proficient, taking advantage of ANY dodge that eliminates the need isn't a good idea. Like using insert tooling in lieu of learning (and mastering) the art of hand grinding lathe cutting tools.

Only you can determine what's important to you. My opinion has little value, if any, in that regard. However, keep this in mind. When some folks stop a project because they have a dead DRO, or don't have an insert for their holder, I keep going. I do that because I'm able, and I keep going with the same quality I would experience if I hadn't experienced the stoppage.

I've never had to replace a battery in ANY of my measuring instruments, either. I've kept machining as simple as it can be. I have no regrets.

H
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Bill Shields
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Re: Considering a DRO

Post by Bill Shields »

:D :shock: control our lives...like an internet bulletin board / forum???
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
pete
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Re: Considering a DRO

Post by pete »

LOL, some good logic there Bill.

For "some" Asian produced equipment adding a dro can vastly increase the accuracy of what the machine is currently capable of in it's OEM condition. I certainly wouldn't argue the point that anyone owning manual machine tools should also be capable of machining to coordinates and knowing how to compensate for backlash. But some of those Asian machines have either odd choices for there feed screw pitches or metric feed screws with imperial marked dials. And most entry level people and I once did as well, will usually tend to keep there gibs adjusted far too tight and poorly lubed. So the dial may show you've moved to the desired coordinates but you could still be a long ways off. It then becomes a cut, measure, cut some more exercise. Drilled, bored, reamed holes in that case simply aren't going to be where your wanting them. And yes I also know there's well proven methods and techniques around any of the issues. One of my books shows master gauges being drilled, bored and ground in 1910 to well under 10ths accuracy on sleeve bearing lathes, shop made hardened and ground machinist buttons, a shop made DTI and a good micrometer. Those machinists capable of doing so were far better than I'll ever be.

Even a high end industrial grade machine that has severe wear levels throughout the machine isn't going to be trust worthy for what the dials say verses it's actual movement. Knowing that machine extremely well along with having that high degree of technical experience then helps a great deal to compensate for a machines degree of inaccuracy's. In an industrial situation that highly worn machine either gets rebuilt or replaced once the operator and machine can no longer produce work to the finished parts expected accuracy levels. That may or may not be an option in a home shop. A dro still doesn't turn a cheap or seriously worn machine into a brand new Schaublin or Moore jig borer, and the machines repeatability is obviously going to be a combination of how rigid, correctly aligned, worn or unworn, plus the operators ability's and experience. Adding a dro is only an aid to hopefully better accuracy and speed and not an automatic replacement of the basics for both the machine and the operator using it. I think you can agree Harold that multiple part runs on industrial equipment with years of on the job machining experience is quite a bit different than what most on this forum actually use whatever machine tools they have available for. At one time few machine tools even had dial markings and some extremely accurate parts were being produced using little more than a decent machinist's scale, inside, outside calipers that couldn't actually measure anything directly and so they were constantly checked or compared against that machinist's scale. And then hand fitting one part to another. Interchangeable parts fit pretty much killed that off. So at the machine tool historical level having those dials could almost be judged as cheating just like adding a dro might be. :-)
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Harold_V
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Re: Considering a DRO

Post by Harold_V »

I get it.

The harsh reality is that not everyone has need (nor desire) to master machining. For some folks, their machine tools are nothing more than a means to an end---they want to build a widget, and machine tools are required. They have no aspirations of becoming a machinist, and have little interest in gaining the skills required to be one. For them, a DRO can be an invaluable tool, as it helps them achieve their goal. When they're finished, they likely don't care if they know how to machine, or not, and that's perfectly acceptable. This isn't about being right or wrong---it's about using good sense.

Let your objective be your guide. If you hope to improve your machining skills, don't buy the dodges. There's no shortcut to gaining skill and knowledge---you have to pay dues.

If, on the other hand, you hope to make the struggle easier, and have a desire to complete certain projects, with little concern about the skills you might gain, those dodges can be quite useful.

H
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NP317
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Re: Considering a DRO

Post by NP317 »

Harold:
I find myself somewhere in the middle of the range of your thoughts:
Appreciating the skills of machining, and needing to get things accomplished.
As a retired classical violinist I truly appreciate gaining High Skills and capabilities, and the efforts required to do so.
As an aging human I feel the need to get things done!

So I learned to machine on quality manual metal machines, and today I enjoy the speed and accuracy provided by using the DROs on my lathe and mill.
And the DROs make it less likely that I will make mistakes as my brain ages and fogs. Sad and true.
Interesting to consider.
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Harold_V
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Re: Considering a DRO

Post by Harold_V »

I agree totally, especially when one already possess the basics of machine operations. Doesn't mean it can't be done without the DRO, but owning the device certainly can't hurt. Just don't rely on them to create ability. They don't do that. That comes from experience.

The one place one must be careful is in establishing the false notion that a DRO will suddenly make a guy successful on the machine. Similar to the notion that owning a Selmer alto saxophone will automatically result in one's playing the instrument the same way it was played by Paul Desmond. When it's all said and done, the guy who makes good parts is usually the guy who has paid dues, much the same way the guy who is first violinist paid dues. Hard work, with hours of repetitive practice.

I envy you your musical talent. I've tried musical instruments. Not a pretty sight.

H
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NP317
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Re: Considering a DRO

Post by NP317 »

Harold_V wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:05 pm [snip]
I envy you your musical talent. I've tried musical instruments. Not a pretty sight.
H
Thanks for the LOL. I was ready from one.
One of our sons played violin too.(no longer) Such an analog instrument is one of the most painful to hear during early training.
I tried to get him to learn a different instrument... like a piano... Or a lathe...
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Re: Considering a DRO

Post by Magicniner »

Harold_V wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:00 pm I question the need. I was trained on manual machines and have never used a DRO. Seems to me like a lot of money to spend with not such a great return, but then I have the utmost confidence in my ability. That didn't come fast, or easy.

H
I thought exactly this way until I used a DRO, in conjunction with a QCTP it can be a transformative experience, add inserted tooling for even less time spent messing with the equipment and more time making parts.
I can understand it is not something appealing for those with infinite time, a finite project list, short arm and long pockets. :D

- Nick
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Harold_V
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Re: Considering a DRO

Post by Harold_V »

Magicniner wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:01 pm
Harold_V wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:00 pm I question the need. I was trained on manual machines and have never used a DRO. Seems to me like a lot of money to spend with not such a great return, but then I have the utmost confidence in my ability. That didn't come fast, or easy.

H
I thought exactly this way until I used a DRO, in conjunction with a QCTP it can be a transformative experience, add inserted tooling for even less time spent messing with the equipment and more time making parts.
I can understand it is not something appealing for those with infinite time, a finite project list, short arm and long pockets. :D

- Nick
For me, it has nothing to do with time. I've tried to make that clear. I can't afford to lose the skills I fought hard to obtain. Using a DRO would result in that, just as a cell phone often results in one's inability to communicate with others without the phone.

I struggled terribly when I got in the shop. It was easy for me to proclaim, and rightfully so, that I could make scrap faster than anyone who worked there. Were it not for the kindness of one individual, I would have been fired. What I came to understand was that it was learning the basics that allowed me to progress, and that bolstered my interest in becoming *the best*. Well, I can't lay claim to being *the best*, but the rewards from learning the basics have been instrumental in my overall success in the machining industry, and the ability to now pass along to those with an interest the encouragement and guidance that I was fortunate to receive. What I do not do is suggest that the use of peripheral devices that reduce the need to learn the basics is a good idea. It isn't. Not unless you don't care about gaining valuable skills. I've already expounded on conditions whereby they are a useful tool. Brings to mind buying a player piano instead of learning to play the manual version of the instrument.

One of the invaluable bits I was offered when I struggled, yet tried to produce, was to learn to do it correctly. Speed will come. That was prophetic.

Please take note that I do not consider the use of a DRO a right or wrong situation. They may be right for some folks, while others may not share that sentiment. If you discovered that your quality improved, perhaps you hit a plateau (most do), whereby you were unlikely to improve, with the DRO being the support you needed. Good for you! :wink:

H
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pete
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Re: Considering a DRO

Post by pete »

Industrial level equipment that started out as well made, accurate, kept well maintained and in adjustment can be a whole lot different than to put it kindly some less than well made and accurate to begin with machines even when brand new. I'd 100% agree everyone should learn how to machine to coordinates using the dials while compensating for there machines backlash conditions. They should also learn enough to make the standard maintenance adjustments where possible to keep there own machines as accurate and backlash free as possible. I've seen people complaining on the UK forums about as little as .010" of backlash on a lathes cross slide. And a dro no matter how accurate isn't going to produce surface grinding levels of accuracy, but they can vastly improve equipment that might be less than accurate such as a lot of those off shore machines. And no dro is ever exactly dead on with all the built in machine deflections so you still have to cut, measure, make educated corrections etc and no different than using the dials only.

Many have mentioned on other forums of finding metric feed screws with imperial marked dials on some of the lower end machines. With those your either going to have to compensate for the backlash as well as making constant never ending dial adjustments to correct for the built in issues, or replace the feed screws and nuts. Or kill all the issues at once and add a dro. To use a mill as an example, most of today's dros would have built in dual programmable X & Y zero points, bolt hole functions, tool library's if you know your Z axis off sets, zero approach warnings, feed rate display etc, etc. Bolt hole circles can of course be done old school with the dials and trig, or mounting the part to a rotary or dividing head. A few key strokes and a known part C/L will do the same with a dro. Like always it depends on what your using the machine for and how much use you'd get out of those usual functions most half decent dro's will come with.

The early jig borers and grinders did some unbelievable work and only had those dials. I couldn't do a lot of what they did to much less accuracy even with my mill and dro. Those guys were real machinist's and tool makers while I'm a back yard hack in comparison.But it also wasn't long with those jig borers and grinders before they started using high accuracy 10ths capable dial indicators and ultra accurate distance rods in one inch increments to remove the slight errors and inevitable wear in those super accurate feed screws that level of equipment came with and developed over time. Less mistakes and faster tool location speed were a nice side bonus as well. As technology caught up those indicators and rods got ditched for dro's for even less mistakes and higher speeds. Then the separate dro and scales disappeared and became part of the display once cnc became common.

It could also be said that if your not wearing a part down to size against a rock or using a bow lathe with stone tipped tools your not a real machinist. :-) If Henry Maudslay, Whitworth, Trevithick, Edison, Leonardo Da Vinci, Tesla, Ford and 10's of thousands more in the last 400 years of technological advancement had dros available you can bet your last buck all of them would have used one without question. They couldn't even dream of what we now have off the shelf. There imo an addition to a tool and not a replacement for the skill you should be developing. The reality's are there no different than adding a scope to a rifle. With either I can produce a part or place a bullet to much better and known accuracy levels. And there's no excuses left to use with either if the part or bullet is off. :-)
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