Switch (Turnout) Motor

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ChuckHackett-844
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Switch (Turnout) Motor

Post by ChuckHackett-844 »

I am in the process of designing a switch motor for turnouts. My basic design criteria is:
  • Must have a low current draw to allow it to be fed by long wires at a distant point on the railroad without the need for batteries, etc. Obviously it could still be used with batteries if desired. I want to keep the current under 100ma but my target is 30ma-40ma
  • Must be able to easily manually override the switch motor when the power is off without having to disconnect anything. e.g.: by just throwing a lever. When next actuated by power it would not need manual intervention to return it to normal service.
  • Must be able to drive it with two wires with full-time power on, i.e.: fed by a simple DPDT switch that simply reverses the polarity to the motor, motor travels to that limit and stops.
  • Must have switched outputs that tell which limit the motor is at to drive a signal system, dwarf, etc.
Do you need a switch motor?

What would you be willing to pay for such a device?

This will determine if I just make them for a few of my customers who are interested or if it can be worth my while to offer it to the railroad community at large.

I might also be able to offer an extra cost option such that the motor that is activated by a contact closure (button, etc.), throws the switch and then, after a user specified timeout, automatically returns to its normal position - with an option to support "Occupied Switch" detection to prevent throwing under a train. Useful for parking sidings to protect your rear, etc.

Would you purchase this option?

What would this option be worth?
Regards,

Chuck Hackett, UP Northern 844, Mich-Cal Shay #2
Owner, MiniRail Solutions, LLC, RR Signal Systems (http://www.MiniRailSolutions.com)
"By the work, One knows the workman"
Soot n' Cinders
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Re: Switch (Turnout) Motor

Post by Soot n' Cinders »

Oh Chuck, you've read my mind.
The design I made here works pretty well, though I will say having a manual actuation lever has created a lot of headaches with people either forcing the machines or tripping over the levers. One thought we had was include a hex socket in the shaft so the machine could be manually thrown with an Allen key if needed but would keep the drivetrain safe when in electric operation.

I would say theres interest here, and I have no doubt you can create a much better machine than I could. Not that I really have time to make them anymore anyway. Price is a little harder to figure since it would kind of depend on the design for me, but I would say $100-200 per machine would be a good price. Serviceability would also be important, would be nice to be able to replace the components individually rather than having to wholesale replace the machine.
I could see the timed return being handy as well, Im not sure what that option would be worth though.

Just my two cents, I look forward to seeing what you come up with!
-Tristan

Projects
-2.5" scale Class A 20 Ton Shay

Steam Siphon: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/leavitt ... tive-works
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ChuckHackett-844
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Re: Switch (Turnout) Motor

Post by ChuckHackett-844 »

Hi Tristan,

The design I'm contemplating would have a handle on it for manual operation. The handle would not cause any damage even if operated while power is applied and the motor moving.

I think that, if the handle can remain protected, it's better to not have to go find a tool to operate the manual throw because you might be a long ways from the yard and need to throw the switch to get to the yard :lol:

Thanks for your feedback.
Regards,

Chuck Hackett, UP Northern 844, Mich-Cal Shay #2
Owner, MiniRail Solutions, LLC, RR Signal Systems (http://www.MiniRailSolutions.com)
"By the work, One knows the workman"
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kcameron
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Re: Switch (Turnout) Motor

Post by kcameron »

I know of an extremely effective and cheep way for a motor driven turnout to be taken manually. It's the design used by Bill Hayes at his Michigan Central layout. First it allows the motor to be added to a manually operated turnout. Simply added a slide arm and a hole in the original operator handle connects the motor arm. To take it manual, pop the arm from the motor out of the way and swing the slide plate out of the way. The operator arm is now working as the original.

Granted it doesn't provide your goal of 'return to automatic when the motor next cycles' but there is a strong benefit of being able to leave it full manual too. It also gives a very simple way to add to existing turnouts.

As for the timed reset function, I'd only go with that with on-switch protection. Again Bill Hayes has examples like that where it won't return to normal until it senses the turnout area clear. Again, very simple with a small detection area.
-ken cameron
Syracuse Model Railroad Club http://www.SyracuseModelRr.org/
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mailto: kcameron@twcny.rr.com
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boaterri
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Re: Switch (Turnout) Motor

Post by boaterri »

You also want to consider lightning protection. The long control wire will make a dandy antenna in the event of a nearby lightning strike.
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ChuckHackett-844
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Re: Switch (Turnout) Motor

Post by ChuckHackett-844 »

boaterri wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:23 pm You also want to consider lightning protection. The long control wire will make a dandy antenna in the event of a nearby lightning strike.
I have over 12 years of experience dealing with lightning and 7.x" gauge railroad signal systems so that's not an issue :lol:

http://www.minirailsolutions.com/living-with-lightning/
Regards,

Chuck Hackett, UP Northern 844, Mich-Cal Shay #2
Owner, MiniRail Solutions, LLC, RR Signal Systems (http://www.MiniRailSolutions.com)
"By the work, One knows the workman"
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ChuckHackett-844
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Re: Switch (Turnout) Motor

Post by ChuckHackett-844 »

kcameron wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:29 pm I know of an extremely effective and cheep way for a motor driven turnout to be taken manually....

Simply added a slide arm and a hole in the original operator handle connects the motor arm. To take it manual, pop the arm from the motor out of the way and swing the slide plate out of the way. The operator arm is now working as the original.

Granted it doesn't provide your goal of 'return to automatic when the motor next cycles' but there is a strong benefit of being able to leave it full manual too. It also gives a very simple way to add to existing turnouts....
Given 1/2 a chance people will forget to return the switch to normal operation, especially visiting engineers.

Much easier to have a normal throw handle that can be moved and need not be returned to its operating position.

If it's really needed, my handle could be 'pinned' in place (akin to 'spiking' a switch) to prevent taking that route - best of both worlds.
Regards,

Chuck Hackett, UP Northern 844, Mich-Cal Shay #2
Owner, MiniRail Solutions, LLC, RR Signal Systems (http://www.MiniRailSolutions.com)
"By the work, One knows the workman"
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makinsmoke
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Re: Switch (Turnout) Motor

Post by makinsmoke »

Hi Chuck,
I don’t have the specs for our switch motors or the electrical information, but on the C&IG switches can be remotely thrown by the dispatcher in the tower, or the switch can be put in local control and operated by a toggle at the switch motor. That’s handy when the tower goes to lunch and folks are still out running.

The rest of the time when power is off, the throw rod from the motor which drops into the throw bar itself can be raised out of the hole and the switch thrown manually and held in place between two stews in the switch ties.

It’s pretty fool proof. We’ve been using the system since years ago changing from pneumatic operators to electric.

Take care,
Brian
Soot n' Cinders
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Re: Switch (Turnout) Motor

Post by Soot n' Cinders »

ChuckHackett-844 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:03 pm
kcameron wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:29 pm I know of an extremely effective and cheep way for a motor driven turnout to be taken manually....

Simply added a slide arm and a hole in the original operator handle connects the motor arm. To take it manual, pop the arm from the motor out of the way and swing the slide plate out of the way. The operator arm is now working as the original.

Granted it doesn't provide your goal of 'return to automatic when the motor next cycles' but there is a strong benefit of being able to leave it full manual too. It also gives a very simple way to add to existing turnouts....
Given 1/2 a chance people will forget to return the switch to normal operation, especially visiting engineers.

Much easier to have a normal throw handle that can be moved and need not be returned to its operating position.

If it's really needed, my handle could be 'pinned' in place (akin to 'spiking' a switch) to prevent taking that route - best of both worlds.
Yeah, given the number of people that forget to return a fully manual switch to main after throwing it Id say its going to be a very common problem.

The way the prototype turnout machines handle manual operation is very nice and would be amazing to replicate in scale, but I have a feeling that clutch mechanism would be quite fussy and would also cost a fortune to make. Or at least more than someone would want to pay for a machine.

I have a couple ideas if you want to talk more about it, but Im sure you have some great ideas as well.
-Tristan

Projects
-2.5" scale Class A 20 Ton Shay

Steam Siphon: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/leavitt ... tive-works
boaterri
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Re: Switch (Turnout) Motor

Post by boaterri »

ChuckHackett-844 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:57 pm
boaterri wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:23 pm You also want to consider lightning protection. The long control wire will make a dandy antenna in the event of a nearby lightning strike.
I have over 12 years of experience dealing with lightning and 7.x" gauge railroad signal systems so that's not an issue :lol:

http://www.minirailsolutions.com/living-with-lightning/
Your system (from your website) has surge protection built into them. That is what I was suggesting to the original poster.

Rick
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ChuckHackett-844
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Re: Switch (Turnout) Motor

Post by ChuckHackett-844 »

boaterri wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:22 pm Your system (from your website) has surge protection built into them. That is what I was suggesting to the original poster.

Rick
Ummm, I was the original poster :lol:
Regards,

Chuck Hackett, UP Northern 844, Mich-Cal Shay #2
Owner, MiniRail Solutions, LLC, RR Signal Systems (http://www.MiniRailSolutions.com)
"By the work, One knows the workman"
Soot n' Cinders
Posts: 983
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:24 pm
Location: Marietta, Georgia

Re: Switch (Turnout) Motor

Post by Soot n' Cinders »

How's the development going Chuck?
-Tristan

Projects
-2.5" scale Class A 20 Ton Shay

Steam Siphon: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/leavitt ... tive-works
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