Source for small hydraulic parts
Moderator: Harold_V
Source for small hydraulic parts
TLDR; Does anyone have a source for small hydraulic cylinders and/or seals? "small" being somewhere in the 1/2"-3/4" range cylinder diameter.
I have a small race car called a Formula 500. Basically, it's a 500cc two stroke snowmobile drive train in a small car chassis with race tires. I autocross the car so suspension tuning trumps engine tuning (also, class rules say the engine can't be altered from stock) so a lot of my time is spent researching suspensions. I found a video from a German Formula SAE team that used a clever system of hydraulics to isolate the various modes of a car (heave, roll, pitch, and wedge) to allow targeted tuning of the car's behavior. I would like to replicate their system but I'm having a hard time finding hydraulics small enough for my car. I can find dozens of examples of 6" bore cylinders capable of lifting the pyramids of Giza but something appropriate for an 800 lbs race car seems to be hard to find. This will be a passive system with a target max pressure of about 3,000 lbs/in^2 (200 bar). All calculations are "napkin" accurate at the moment so everything is open for debate/discussion.
Ideally, I'd like to find a source for hydraulic seals in the 1/4"-3/8" range for the rod and 1/2"-3/4" for the piston. Fast motion seals without a lot of friction would be nice. That would allow me to custom build something that is reasonably small and light weight (something hydraulics aren't typically known for). I thought I would be able to find something by looking for hydraulic instrumentation (i.e. using a hydraulic cylinder as a position sensor for example) but my Google-foo is weak and I'm not finding anything.
I've already looked at what Parker has to offer and another company called SMC Pneumatics. SMC has some small stuff that is really expensive, Parker is in the pyramid lifting business.
So, anyone have a source for small hydraulics?
I have a small race car called a Formula 500. Basically, it's a 500cc two stroke snowmobile drive train in a small car chassis with race tires. I autocross the car so suspension tuning trumps engine tuning (also, class rules say the engine can't be altered from stock) so a lot of my time is spent researching suspensions. I found a video from a German Formula SAE team that used a clever system of hydraulics to isolate the various modes of a car (heave, roll, pitch, and wedge) to allow targeted tuning of the car's behavior. I would like to replicate their system but I'm having a hard time finding hydraulics small enough for my car. I can find dozens of examples of 6" bore cylinders capable of lifting the pyramids of Giza but something appropriate for an 800 lbs race car seems to be hard to find. This will be a passive system with a target max pressure of about 3,000 lbs/in^2 (200 bar). All calculations are "napkin" accurate at the moment so everything is open for debate/discussion.
Ideally, I'd like to find a source for hydraulic seals in the 1/4"-3/8" range for the rod and 1/2"-3/4" for the piston. Fast motion seals without a lot of friction would be nice. That would allow me to custom build something that is reasonably small and light weight (something hydraulics aren't typically known for). I thought I would be able to find something by looking for hydraulic instrumentation (i.e. using a hydraulic cylinder as a position sensor for example) but my Google-foo is weak and I'm not finding anything.
I've already looked at what Parker has to offer and another company called SMC Pneumatics. SMC has some small stuff that is really expensive, Parker is in the pyramid lifting business.
So, anyone have a source for small hydraulics?
Re: Source for small hydraulic parts
Heh! I've been looking for a short stroke large diameter hydraulic cylinder for the 100 ton four post press I'd like to get functional and have had very little luck. Needless to say, I'm not able to buy new (don't have that kind of funding being retired), which is a part of the problem.
I'm not a hydraulics guy, but I've bumped in to a lot of pneumatic stuff in my searches. It's built quite light and might be a solution to your problem. I don't know that it would be. An air source most likely would be limiting.
H
I'm not a hydraulics guy, but I've bumped in to a lot of pneumatic stuff in my searches. It's built quite light and might be a solution to your problem. I don't know that it would be. An air source most likely would be limiting.
H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
- liveaboard
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Re: Source for small hydraulic parts
Recently I changed the struts on my car; the rod and tube are still good parts.
For your custom suspension plan, consider a new stock strut, and cut it apart. 90% of your needs in a well priced easy to get package.
It's surprising how cheap hydraulic components can be, retail markups are usually huge.
I used to buy from a shop in the UK, probably the shipping will be no fun but their prices really are very good; flowfitonline.co.uk
If they can do it, then there must be someone in the US selling at competitive prices.
Harold; look for a used cylinder with the diameter you want, and shorten it. I did that.
Seals are available for every size, not too expensive. The wiper seal at the top of some cylinders is hard to find but easy to cut from nylon.
My American tractor friends say surplus center, Graingers, Amazon, and ebay.
A Portuguese friend of mine buys cylinder rod and tube cut to length from a local shop, buys the seals and fabricates his cylinders.
I've seen 20' lengths of chromed hydraulic rod on the rack of a shop near me.
I made my press from a 20 ton jack, only because I had it.
Jacks and presses are usually higher pressure (600 bar) than machinery (200 bar).
There's a large variety of fitting sizes and styles that can be confusing. I often make my own just to save time and aggravation.
For your custom suspension plan, consider a new stock strut, and cut it apart. 90% of your needs in a well priced easy to get package.
It's surprising how cheap hydraulic components can be, retail markups are usually huge.
I used to buy from a shop in the UK, probably the shipping will be no fun but their prices really are very good; flowfitonline.co.uk
If they can do it, then there must be someone in the US selling at competitive prices.
Harold; look for a used cylinder with the diameter you want, and shorten it. I did that.
Seals are available for every size, not too expensive. The wiper seal at the top of some cylinders is hard to find but easy to cut from nylon.
My American tractor friends say surplus center, Graingers, Amazon, and ebay.
A Portuguese friend of mine buys cylinder rod and tube cut to length from a local shop, buys the seals and fabricates his cylinders.
I've seen 20' lengths of chromed hydraulic rod on the rack of a shop near me.
I made my press from a 20 ton jack, only because I had it.
Jacks and presses are usually higher pressure (600 bar) than machinery (200 bar).
There's a large variety of fitting sizes and styles that can be confusing. I often make my own just to save time and aggravation.
Re: Source for small hydraulic parts
Kaman Fluid Power is my go-to for that sort of stuff. Not sure if they have a presence in Nebraska, however.
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Music isn’t at all difficult. All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!
Music isn’t at all difficult. All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!
Re: Source for small hydraulic parts
I've ordered a pile of amazon special pneumatic cylinders to do some prototyping but they aren't built for the pressure. Also, I can't use pneumatics here because I need the fluid to be incompressible. Thanks for the suggestion though Harold.
I checked flowfitonline, the smallest cylinder they have is 30mm diameter, 100mm stroke with a 20mm shaft. I'm looking in the range of 20mm dia, 30mm stroke, and 6mm shaft. Also, the smallest chrome plated shaft I can find is 5/8" (15mm?). ATV and motorcycle shocks might be a good idea for salvaging parts though. Thanks for the idea liveaboard.
Kaman Fluid Power is a Parker distributer. Seems like there are only a couple of hydraulic manufactures and everyone distributes those. Looks like I'm just going to have to call my local Parker distributer and talk with them. I've been putting off the call because this is a one shot hobby project.
I checked flowfitonline, the smallest cylinder they have is 30mm diameter, 100mm stroke with a 20mm shaft. I'm looking in the range of 20mm dia, 30mm stroke, and 6mm shaft. Also, the smallest chrome plated shaft I can find is 5/8" (15mm?). ATV and motorcycle shocks might be a good idea for salvaging parts though. Thanks for the idea liveaboard.
Kaman Fluid Power is a Parker distributer. Seems like there are only a couple of hydraulic manufactures and everyone distributes those. Looks like I'm just going to have to call my local Parker distributer and talk with them. I've been putting off the call because this is a one shot hobby project.
- Bill Shields
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Re: Source for small hydraulic parts
Thanks for your thoughts, liveaboard.
The cylinder on the press isn't double acting, which I'd like to change. It's only 6½" diameter, but was built much like a bottle jack, so it develops extremely high pressure in order for the press to achieve 100 tons. The press is fully dismantled at this point and I'm exploring my options. Not in a hurry, but I'm hoping to be able to do some light coining in the future.
H
The cylinder on the press isn't double acting, which I'd like to change. It's only 6½" diameter, but was built much like a bottle jack, so it develops extremely high pressure in order for the press to achieve 100 tons. The press is fully dismantled at this point and I'm exploring my options. Not in a hurry, but I'm hoping to be able to do some light coining in the future.
H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
- liveaboard
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Re: Source for small hydraulic parts
"only" 6 1/2" diameter??
That's a pretty healthy cylinder!
That's a pretty healthy cylinder!
Re: Source for small hydraulic parts
While I'm not familiar with the current F500 rules (I was racing when they were called F440), you need to make sure that anything you do fits within the rules.
I remember the suspension as just having rubber blocks and that was ALL you were allowed to have.
I understand that things change, just want to be sure you are working in the rules before you get too far.
Steve
I remember the suspension as just having rubber blocks and that was ALL you were allowed to have.
I understand that things change, just want to be sure you are working in the rules before you get too far.
Steve
Re: Source for small hydraulic parts
You are correct Steve. This may bump me out of FM to BM but it would be fun to build. Also, as long as the hydraulics don't have damping valves in it, it's just transferring motion. The car would still be 100% supported by the rubber blocks, just in a different place.
Rules are meant to be gone over with a very fine tooth comb looking for loopholes in motorsport.
Rules are meant to be gone over with a very fine tooth comb looking for loopholes in motorsport.
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Re: Source for small hydraulic parts
Hercules Sealing Products. in Florida. herculesus.com. If they don't have the seals you need, they don't exist.